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West-coast USian who visited India about 6 months ago; can confirm: I was very by how physically affectionate guys were with each other. I feel like we're in a

by dilap 11y ago

West-coast USian who visited India about 6 months ago; can confirm: I was very by how physically affectionate guys were with each other. I feel like we're in a weird place in the US where there's no room in our culture for male physical closeness that isn't sexual. (And it's pretty common to hear people say that the bits that persist, like e.g. wrestling or butt-pats in football, are secretly gay/repressed.) Optimistically, I'd say it's a side-effect of becoming more aware and accepting of homosexuality. It's still new and a bit of a battleground. As the newness fades away and it becomes simply normal and less polarized, more room will bloom again in the middle for an understanding of non-sexual forms of closeness.

Retric 11y ago
I think US Men have a lot more acceptable codified physical contact than non sexual/familial M/F contact. Greetings can involve hand shakes, fist bumbs, 1/2 hugs, or bumping shoulders etc. Two Male friends walking side by side it's OK for a third friend to be in extended contact with both. Hand holding might seem off, but when a guy is really drunk the steadying hand on a forearm or solder is considered OK. Even the 'extended' hug is considered ok if someone is dealing with significant trauma. PS: WW_ aka 'Professional' wrestling is often called gay because it's a male version of soap opera mixed with theater. Actual wrestling has long held 'sexual' overtones likely due to what it looks like to observers. where boxing/judo/karate sparing can also have a lot of physical contact, but rarely comes off as gay.
- girvo 11y ago
  > Actual wrestling has long held 'sexual' overtones likely due to what it looks like to observers That's a tautology. dilap's point was that our views in society have changed, and acceptable physical contact between males has narrowed in modern history.
  - Retric 11y ago
    I will put it this way, while clothed there is a mild resemblance to sex both physically and the noises involved. Historically, people did this either partially or fully naked.
- dilap 11y ago
  yeah, i was thinking of the sport, not the ridiculous (but awesome in its own way) entertainment. :)
learc83 11y ago
"USian" is distracting enough that I'm taking the time to write this reply. The accepted English demonym for inhabitants of the United States of America is American. It has been this way for 200 years. We call ourselves American, and every English speaking country calls us American. The only measure of correctness for language is use, and when speaking in English, American is only commonly used in one way--in English, American is almost universally unambiguous. No other country name contains the word America, and no one else commonly refers to themselves as American in English.
- eru 11y ago
  > No other country name contains the word America [...] I checked the list of sovereign countries. It's actually true.
- koralatov 11y ago
  I completely agree with your post, and your correction of the abnormal/pedantic neologism 'USian' (how would that even be pronounced? /juːʃaɪn/? /ju ɛs aɪn/?). It's not just English speakers who use the term 'American' --- I've frequently heard it in use by Polish and Hungarian people when speaking their own language: "[Polish words] American [more Polish]".
- ragazzina 11y ago
  >The only measure of correctness for language is use, I'd posit the only measure of correctness for language is the ability of being understood, even before the use. So when I read and understand USian, I don't really care that much that it's less used than American to deem it "incorrect". If you don't like it, say so, but limited usage is a small reason to consider something "wrong".
  - learc83 11y ago
    >I'd posit the only measure of correctness for language is the ability of being understood, even before the use. The ability to be understood is directly tied to use. If you use nonstandard constructions, fewer people will understand you. Less people understand USian than American precisely because it's not in common use. >but limited usage is a small reason to consider something "wrong". No, most linguists consider lack of use pretty much the only reason to consider something "wrong". When something is used enough to be in common use is a bit arbitrary, but USian has definitely not met that standard. You might as well start using USican or USperson. Beyond being very uncommon, it's also distracting even to people who do understand it. The capitalization is non-standard, and it's difficult to pronounce. The purpose of writing is to effectively communicate, and unless your goal is to purposely pull people out of the flow of your writing, it's not a good idea to use it.
cm2187 11y ago
And things have changed recently. For instance I remember a scene in the first Grandfather where Duvall first meets the producer, who walk him out of his studio holding his hand. One wouldn't even shoot a period movie like that today. In half of the scene in 30s and 40s movie, male actors hold each other arms when they discuss.

by dilap 11y ago

Retric 11y ago

I think US Men have a lot more acceptable codified physical contact than non sexual/familial M/F contact. Greetings can involve hand shakes, fist bumbs, 1/2 hugs, or bumping shoulders etc. Two Male friends walking side by side it's OK for a third friend to be in extended contact with both. Hand holding might seem off, but when a guy is really drunk the steadying hand on a forearm or solder is considered OK. Even the 'extended' hug is considered ok if someone is dealing with significant trauma. PS: WW_ aka 'Professional' wrestling is often called gay because it's a male version of soap opera mixed with theater. Actual wrestling has long held 'sexual' overtones likely due to what it looks like to observers. where boxing/judo/karate sparing can also have a lot of physical contact, but rarely comes off as gay.

girvo 11y ago
> Actual wrestling has long held 'sexual' overtones likely due to what it looks like to observers That's a tautology. dilap's point was that our views in society have changed, and acceptable physical contact between males has narrowed in modern history.
- Retric 11y ago
  I will put it this way, while clothed there is a mild resemblance to sex both physically and the noises involved. Historically, people did this either partially or fully naked.
dilap 11y ago
yeah, i was thinking of the sport, not the ridiculous (but awesome in its own way) entertainment. :)

learc83 11y ago

"USian" is distracting enough that I'm taking the time to write this reply. The accepted English demonym for inhabitants of the United States of America is American. It has been this way for 200 years. We call ourselves American, and every English speaking country calls us American. The only measure of correctness for language is use, and when speaking in English, American is only commonly used in one way--in English, American is almost universally unambiguous. No other country name contains the word America, and no one else commonly refers to themselves as American in English.

eru 11y ago
> No other country name contains the word America [...] I checked the list of sovereign countries. It's actually true.
koralatov 11y ago
I completely agree with your post, and your correction of the abnormal/pedantic neologism 'USian' (how would that even be pronounced? /juːʃaɪn/? /ju ɛs aɪn/?). It's not just English speakers who use the term 'American' --- I've frequently heard it in use by Polish and Hungarian people when speaking their own language: "[Polish words] American [more Polish]".
ragazzina 11y ago
>The only measure of correctness for language is use, I'd posit the only measure of correctness for language is the ability of being understood, even before the use. So when I read and understand USian, I don't really care that much that it's less used than American to deem it "incorrect". If you don't like it, say so, but limited usage is a small reason to consider something "wrong".
- learc83 11y ago
  >I'd posit the only measure of correctness for language is the ability of being understood, even before the use. The ability to be understood is directly tied to use. If you use nonstandard constructions, fewer people will understand you. Less people understand USian than American precisely because it's not in common use. >but limited usage is a small reason to consider something "wrong". No, most linguists consider lack of use pretty much the only reason to consider something "wrong". When something is used enough to be in common use is a bit arbitrary, but USian has definitely not met that standard. You might as well start using USican or USperson. Beyond being very uncommon, it's also distracting even to people who do understand it. The capitalization is non-standard, and it's difficult to pronounce. The purpose of writing is to effectively communicate, and unless your goal is to purposely pull people out of the flow of your writing, it's not a good idea to use it.

cm2187 11y ago

And things have changed recently. For instance I remember a scene in the first Grandfather where Duvall first meets the producer, who walk him out of his studio holding his hand. One wouldn't even shoot a period movie like that today. In half of the scene in 30s and 40s movie, male actors hold each other arms when they discuss.