10 ms·

More recent than that, you can point to Lincoln, who engaged in bedsharing with another man and wrote some (by modern standards) quite suggestive comments about

More recent than that, you can point to Lincoln, who engaged in bedsharing with another man and wrote some (by modern standards) quite suggestive comments about the other man's thighs. It's been claimed that Lincoln was bisexual, but I don't think it's a common theory among historians. The range of acceptable "straight" behavior has greatly narrowed in the modern west. I've read that in India, it's still absolutely unremarkable for two men to walk down the streets holding hands, even though homosexuality is vastly less accepted than in the US.

agumonkey 11y ago
It seems some cultures are angry at homosexuality being first class lifestyle. Northern African cultures will forget what one does with another same-sex person as long as they play the accepted citizen/family roles, aka get married traditionally with the according gender, make babies, don't talk about what things you may or may have not done. I'm really curious how pre antique cultures, tribes for instance, dealt with this.
- hyperpape 11y ago
  I think the idea that "this can happen, but can't ever be open" is present some places, but I'm also talking about completely non-sexual activities like the "awkward dude hug" in the United States.
  - agumonkey 11y ago
    Agreed. Americans seems (just telling what I've read) friendly in facade but out of touch with deeper emotions, while Russians cold at first are said to be very very friendly once you get actual friends.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- notNow 11y ago
  I'm from a North African country and your comment sounds foreign to my ears. Maybe this is more fitting to Morocco or Tunisia but I can't attest to your observation that it's upheld here in Egypt.
  - agumonkey 11y ago
    You're probably right I can't recall which country it was. How is it in Egypt ? more liberty or complete rejection of non straight lifestyles ?
wanderingstan 11y ago
I spent a summer in Sumatra a decade ago. Western ex-pats warned me that after a while a native male friend would hold my hand, but that it was merely a sign that we were now friends. (I am male.) It indeed happened and I was happy to have had the prior explanation or it could have been quite confusing!
dilap 11y ago
West-coast USian who visited India about 6 months ago; can confirm: I was very by how physically affectionate guys were with each other. I feel like we're in a weird place in the US where there's no room in our culture for male physical closeness that isn't sexual. (And it's pretty common to hear people say that the bits that persist, like e.g. wrestling or butt-pats in football, are secretly gay/repressed.) Optimistically, I'd say it's a side-effect of becoming more aware and accepting of homosexuality. It's still new and a bit of a battleground. As the newness fades away and it becomes simply normal and less polarized, more room will bloom again in the middle for an understanding of non-sexual forms of closeness.
- Retric 11y ago
  I think US Men have a lot more acceptable codified physical contact than non sexual/familial M/F contact. Greetings can involve hand shakes, fist bumbs, 1/2 hugs, or bumping shoulders etc. Two Male friends walking side by side it's OK for a third friend to be in extended contact with both. Hand holding might seem off, but when a guy is really drunk the steadying hand on a forearm or solder is considered OK. Even the 'extended' hug is considered ok if someone is dealing with significant trauma. PS: WW_ aka 'Professional' wrestling is often called gay because it's a male version of soap opera mixed with theater. Actual wrestling has long held 'sexual' overtones likely due to what it looks like to observers. where boxing/judo/karate sparing can also have a lot of physical contact, but rarely comes off as gay.
  - girvo 11y ago
    > Actual wrestling has long held 'sexual' overtones likely due to what it looks like to observers That's a tautology. dilap's point was that our views in society have changed, and acceptable physical contact between males has narrowed in modern history.
    - Retric 11y ago
      I will put it this way, while clothed there is a mild resemblance to sex both physically and the noises involved. Historically, people did this either partially or fully naked.
yummyfajitas 11y ago
A much more common theory is that Buchanan was gay. http://www.salon.com/2012/05/14/our_real_first_gay_president/ http://www.salon.com/2012/05/14/our_real_first_gay_president... Of course, given his weakly pro-slavery and otherwise terrible presidency, no one feels the need to devote a lot of publicity to this fact.
- aaron-lebo 11y ago
  For some reason this comment was in the grey. When you look at the evidence, it seems quite obvious that Buchanan was, in fact, gay, which is interesting and completely detached from his performance.
- hyperpape 11y ago
  Yup, my point was that Lincoln is generally not believed to have been bisexual, just like the bed sharing magi. As for Buchanan, that article feels rather polemical. Is there a more authoritative summary anywhere?
rmc 11y ago
> I've read that in India, it's still absolutely unremarkable for two men to walk down the streets holding hands, even though homosexuality is vastly less accepted than in the US. Not sure about India, but I've heard that in the Arab world, and seen in Ethiopia, that men holding hands doesn't imply homosexuality. Different cultures have different rules. A man kissing a man on the cheek in France doesn't mean they are gay.
- baddox 11y ago
  Yes, the meaning of the gesture of holding hands is important. In the U.S., as far as I can tell it almost always indicates a romantic relationship (or adults chaperoning young children, obviously).
  - falcolas 11y ago
    > or adults chaperoning young children, obviously Even that is too frequently associated with romance by a small but vocal population in the US.
    - task_queue 11y ago
      Is this really a thing?
      - fit2rule 11y ago
        For some Dads, alas, yes. It is a thing. Open affection towards ones children, in some settings, can be a surefire way to attract unwanted attention from people who can only be described as hair-trigger SJW's, just waiting to pounce on any male they deem a threat, and 'offensive' behaviour such as holding ones daughters' hand, or giving her a kiss in greeting, has often gotten a Dad in more hassle than its worth. I think its atrocious - as a father, I can't think of anything worse than some social entity claiming that my affection for my children has a nefarious intent. It is really a common tragedy, alas - so much so that I see associate Fathers whose daughters just don't get balanced affinity from their parents. Yes, it is a thing, and it is a sad state of affairs. My boys get hugs and kisses regardless. Love shouldn't have to be defended from others, but alas PDA for children is a huge social issue in modern America - and England too, I have noticed. In some ways, our societies are terribly pornographic.
sdenton4 11y ago
Another instance of this is in Moby Dick, which starts with the (great) scene of Ishmael sharing a bed with Queequeg before they ship out together. There's clearly no sexual relationship involved: it's just a way to save some money on a room, in an old-school version of the sharing economy, I suppose.
- nemo 11y ago
  Moby Dick has some seriously homoerotic content, though: "Squeeze! squeeze! squeeze! all the morning long; I squeezed that sperm till I myself almost melted into it; I squeezed that sperm till a strange sort of insanity came over me; and I found myself unwittingly squeezing my co-laborers’ hands in it, mistaking their hands for the gentle globules. Such an abounding, affectionate, friendly, loving feeling did this avocation beget; that at last I was continually squeezing their hands, and looking up into their eyes sentimentally; as much as to say,- Oh! my dear fellow beings, why should we longer cherish any social acerbities, or know the slightest ill-humor or envy! Come; let us squeeze hands all round; nay, let us all squeeze ourselves into each other; let us squeeze ourselves universally into the very milk and sperm of kindness." http://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/42/moby-dick/775/chapter-94-a-squeeze-of-the-hand/ http://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/42/moby-dick/775/chapter-94-a-sque...
  - pcrh 11y ago
    In the context of this thread, it's worth pointing out here that the sperm referred to isn't semen, but spermaceti. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_whale#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_whale#Etymology
    - HCIdivision17 11y ago
      My 12th grade lit teacher would likely note that we was rather squeezing seamen, and then leap into another lecture on Melville's literary craftiness. Gotta admit, though, it's a legendary pun.
    - nemo 11y ago
      True, though in Melville's time the word "sperm" did also mean semen, and the homoeroticism isn't just in the word "sperm" but the whole of the passage. Moby Dick has a ton of homoerotic scenes like the man donning the whale's penis skin as a robe, or the various bed-sharing scenes with Ishmael and Queequeg including gems like "Queequeg now and then affectionately throwing his brown tattooed legs over mine, and then drawing them back; so entirely sociable and free and easy we were," and "Queequeg's arm thrown over me in the most loving and affectionate manner."
616c 11y ago
Just as common in most parts of the A-rab world I have frequented. I would do it with friends who had befriended me, and I was proud since it meant I had integrated much more rapidly than American peers. When other study abroad students would look at me in shock or disgust, I loathed them. Study abroad should be more than transporting your ass to a different geographic location, it should mean exchanging cultural mores and ideas, but I digress.
nmridul 11y ago
It has nothing to do with homosexuality. In India it is normal for a guy to hold the hand of a guy (or girl to hold another girl) while walking or even hug each other as a way of greeting. You can even see friends walking together having their hands on others shoulder. But you do the same to a person of opposite sex in public, it would raise some eyebrows. Unless, you are in a big metropolitan city.
zaidf 11y ago
it's still absolutely unremarkable for two men to walk down the streets holding hands, even though homosexuality is vastly less accepted than in the US. Totally. When I'm visiting India and taking a walk with cousins, it's almost awkward to not throw your arms around while we are walking. This is very visible during school lunch hours in India: you will see endless sights of straight men and women holding hands or with their arms around their best friend of same sex.
- joe_developer 11y ago
  The practical reason for this is that you don't lose you friend in a crowd.
sandGorgon 11y ago
yes - this is true in India. For most Indians in the west, it is a very harsh learning that the west is a very dont-touch-me culture even between friends. Interestingly, the anti-gay law in India (Article 377) is an 1860 law that was brought over by the British. Hindu culture is resplendent with gay and transsexual gods. We dont have a deeply religious or cultural basis for an anti-gay law.
- agumonkey 11y ago
  > the anti-gay law in India (Article 377) is an 1860 law that was brought over by the British How unsurprising. And sad.
  - sandGorgon 11y ago
    It gets worse. The RBI Act, 1934, was proposed by the British as a ‘temporary measure’ [1]. This Act oversees 1 Trillion dollars of foreign exchange in India. The problem is that these acts cannot just be repealed - drafting a new financial code for the world's second fastest growing and seventh largest economy in the world... at a time when the growth rate is racing to touch 9% is a giant clusterfuck [2]. [1] http://www.bu.edu/bucflp/files/2012/01/Reserve-Bank-of-India-Act-of-1934.pdf http://www.bu.edu/bucflp/files/2012/01/Reserve-Bank-of-India... And whereas in the present disorganization of the monetary systems of the world it is not possible to determine what will be suitable as a permanent basis for the Indian monetary system; But whereas it is expedient to make temporary provision on the basis of the existing monetary system, and to leave the question of the monetary standard best suited to India to be considered when the international monetary position has become sufficiently clear and stable to make it possible to frame permanent measures [2] http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/finance/the-indian-financial-code-whats-promising-whats-not/articleshow/48261950.cms http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/finance/the...
    - agumonkey 11y ago
      Well that's another thing. My comment was referring to the fact that many documentaries list 19th England as a tipping point about views on sexuality that backfired silently, turning people away from natural relationship into hidden ~perverted~ customs. I didn't know the British still had a hand in Indian economy but I guess they still need their old 'supervisor' behind the curtain.
mortenjorck 11y ago
Lincoln? Let's jump another 75 years ahead and look at the pop culture of the 1930s. One of the most popular comedy duos of the day, Laurel & Hardy, are, film after film, depicted sharing a bed (seriously, do a Google image search for it). It's presented no differently from how two men sharing an apartment would be today.

agumonkey 11y ago

It seems some cultures are angry at homosexuality being first class lifestyle. Northern African cultures will forget what one does with another same-sex person as long as they play the accepted citizen/family roles, aka get married traditionally with the according gender, make babies, don't talk about what things you may or may have not done. I'm really curious how pre antique cultures, tribes for instance, dealt with this.

hyperpape 11y ago
I think the idea that "this can happen, but can't ever be open" is present some places, but I'm also talking about completely non-sexual activities like the "awkward dude hug" in the United States.
- agumonkey 11y ago
  Agreed. Americans seems (just telling what I've read) friendly in facade but out of touch with deeper emotions, while Russians cold at first are said to be very very friendly once you get actual friends.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
notNow 11y ago
I'm from a North African country and your comment sounds foreign to my ears. Maybe this is more fitting to Morocco or Tunisia but I can't attest to your observation that it's upheld here in Egypt.
- agumonkey 11y ago
  You're probably right I can't recall which country it was. How is it in Egypt ? more liberty or complete rejection of non straight lifestyles ?

wanderingstan 11y ago

I spent a summer in Sumatra a decade ago. Western ex-pats warned me that after a while a native male friend would hold my hand, but that it was merely a sign that we were now friends. (I am male.) It indeed happened and I was happy to have had the prior explanation or it could have been quite confusing!

dilap 11y ago

West-coast USian who visited India about 6 months ago; can confirm: I was very by how physically affectionate guys were with each other. I feel like we're in a weird place in the US where there's no room in our culture for male physical closeness that isn't sexual. (And it's pretty common to hear people say that the bits that persist, like e.g. wrestling or butt-pats in football, are secretly gay/repressed.) Optimistically, I'd say it's a side-effect of becoming more aware and accepting of homosexuality. It's still new and a bit of a battleground. As the newness fades away and it becomes simply normal and less polarized, more room will bloom again in the middle for an understanding of non-sexual forms of closeness.

Retric 11y ago
I think US Men have a lot more acceptable codified physical contact than non sexual/familial M/F contact. Greetings can involve hand shakes, fist bumbs, 1/2 hugs, or bumping shoulders etc. Two Male friends walking side by side it's OK for a third friend to be in extended contact with both. Hand holding might seem off, but when a guy is really drunk the steadying hand on a forearm or solder is considered OK. Even the 'extended' hug is considered ok if someone is dealing with significant trauma. PS: WW_ aka 'Professional' wrestling is often called gay because it's a male version of soap opera mixed with theater. Actual wrestling has long held 'sexual' overtones likely due to what it looks like to observers. where boxing/judo/karate sparing can also have a lot of physical contact, but rarely comes off as gay.
- girvo 11y ago
  > Actual wrestling has long held 'sexual' overtones likely due to what it looks like to observers That's a tautology. dilap's point was that our views in society have changed, and acceptable physical contact between males has narrowed in modern history.
  - Retric 11y ago
    I will put it this way, while clothed there is a mild resemblance to sex both physically and the noises involved. Historically, people did this either partially or fully naked.

yummyfajitas 11y ago

A much more common theory is that Buchanan was gay. http://www.salon.com/2012/05/14/our_real_first_gay_president/ http://www.salon.com/2012/05/14/our_real_first_gay_president... Of course, given his weakly pro-slavery and otherwise terrible presidency, no one feels the need to devote a lot of publicity to this fact.

aaron-lebo 11y ago
For some reason this comment was in the grey. When you look at the evidence, it seems quite obvious that Buchanan was, in fact, gay, which is interesting and completely detached from his performance.
hyperpape 11y ago
Yup, my point was that Lincoln is generally not believed to have been bisexual, just like the bed sharing magi. As for Buchanan, that article feels rather polemical. Is there a more authoritative summary anywhere?

rmc 11y ago

> I've read that in India, it's still absolutely unremarkable for two men to walk down the streets holding hands, even though homosexuality is vastly less accepted than in the US. Not sure about India, but I've heard that in the Arab world, and seen in Ethiopia, that men holding hands doesn't imply homosexuality. Different cultures have different rules. A man kissing a man on the cheek in France doesn't mean they are gay.

baddox 11y ago
Yes, the meaning of the gesture of holding hands is important. In the U.S., as far as I can tell it almost always indicates a romantic relationship (or adults chaperoning young children, obviously).
- falcolas 11y ago
  > or adults chaperoning young children, obviously Even that is too frequently associated with romance by a small but vocal population in the US.
  - task_queue 11y ago
    Is this really a thing?
    - fit2rule 11y ago
      For some Dads, alas, yes. It is a thing. Open affection towards ones children, in some settings, can be a surefire way to attract unwanted attention from people who can only be described as hair-trigger SJW's, just waiting to pounce on any male they deem a threat, and 'offensive' behaviour such as holding ones daughters' hand, or giving her a kiss in greeting, has often gotten a Dad in more hassle than its worth. I think its atrocious - as a father, I can't think of anything worse than some social entity claiming that my affection for my children has a nefarious intent. It is really a common tragedy, alas - so much so that I see associate Fathers whose daughters just don't get balanced affinity from their parents. Yes, it is a thing, and it is a sad state of affairs. My boys get hugs and kisses regardless. Love shouldn't have to be defended from others, but alas PDA for children is a huge social issue in modern America - and England too, I have noticed. In some ways, our societies are terribly pornographic.

sdenton4 11y ago

Another instance of this is in Moby Dick, which starts with the (great) scene of Ishmael sharing a bed with Queequeg before they ship out together. There's clearly no sexual relationship involved: it's just a way to save some money on a room, in an old-school version of the sharing economy, I suppose.

nemo 11y ago
Moby Dick has some seriously homoerotic content, though: "Squeeze! squeeze! squeeze! all the morning long; I squeezed that sperm till I myself almost melted into it; I squeezed that sperm till a strange sort of insanity came over me; and I found myself unwittingly squeezing my co-laborers’ hands in it, mistaking their hands for the gentle globules. Such an abounding, affectionate, friendly, loving feeling did this avocation beget; that at last I was continually squeezing their hands, and looking up into their eyes sentimentally; as much as to say,- Oh! my dear fellow beings, why should we longer cherish any social acerbities, or know the slightest ill-humor or envy! Come; let us squeeze hands all round; nay, let us all squeeze ourselves into each other; let us squeeze ourselves universally into the very milk and sperm of kindness." http://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/42/moby-dick/775/chapter-94-a-squeeze-of-the-hand/ http://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/42/moby-dick/775/chapter-94-a-sque...
- pcrh 11y ago
  In the context of this thread, it's worth pointing out here that the sperm referred to isn't semen, but spermaceti. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_whale#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_whale#Etymology
  - HCIdivision17 11y ago
    My 12th grade lit teacher would likely note that we was rather squeezing seamen, and then leap into another lecture on Melville's literary craftiness. Gotta admit, though, it's a legendary pun.
  - nemo 11y ago
    True, though in Melville's time the word "sperm" did also mean semen, and the homoeroticism isn't just in the word "sperm" but the whole of the passage. Moby Dick has a ton of homoerotic scenes like the man donning the whale's penis skin as a robe, or the various bed-sharing scenes with Ishmael and Queequeg including gems like "Queequeg now and then affectionately throwing his brown tattooed legs over mine, and then drawing them back; so entirely sociable and free and easy we were," and "Queequeg's arm thrown over me in the most loving and affectionate manner."

616c 11y ago

Just as common in most parts of the A-rab world I have frequented. I would do it with friends who had befriended me, and I was proud since it meant I had integrated much more rapidly than American peers. When other study abroad students would look at me in shock or disgust, I loathed them. Study abroad should be more than transporting your ass to a different geographic location, it should mean exchanging cultural mores and ideas, but I digress.

nmridul 11y ago

It has nothing to do with homosexuality. In India it is normal for a guy to hold the hand of a guy (or girl to hold another girl) while walking or even hug each other as a way of greeting. You can even see friends walking together having their hands on others shoulder. But you do the same to a person of opposite sex in public, it would raise some eyebrows. Unless, you are in a big metropolitan city.

zaidf 11y ago

it's still absolutely unremarkable for two men to walk down the streets holding hands, even though homosexuality is vastly less accepted than in the US. Totally. When I'm visiting India and taking a walk with cousins, it's almost awkward to not throw your arms around while we are walking. This is very visible during school lunch hours in India: you will see endless sights of straight men and women holding hands or with their arms around their best friend of same sex.

joe_developer 11y ago
The practical reason for this is that you don't lose you friend in a crowd.

sandGorgon 11y ago

yes - this is true in India. For most Indians in the west, it is a very harsh learning that the west is a very dont-touch-me culture even between friends. Interestingly, the anti-gay law in India (Article 377) is an 1860 law that was brought over by the British. Hindu culture is resplendent with gay and transsexual gods. We dont have a deeply religious or cultural basis for an anti-gay law.

agumonkey 11y ago
> the anti-gay law in India (Article 377) is an 1860 law that was brought over by the British How unsurprising. And sad.
- sandGorgon 11y ago
  It gets worse. The RBI Act, 1934, was proposed by the British as a ‘temporary measure’ [1]. This Act oversees 1 Trillion dollars of foreign exchange in India. The problem is that these acts cannot just be repealed - drafting a new financial code for the world's second fastest growing and seventh largest economy in the world... at a time when the growth rate is racing to touch 9% is a giant clusterfuck [2]. [1] http://www.bu.edu/bucflp/files/2012/01/Reserve-Bank-of-India-Act-of-1934.pdf http://www.bu.edu/bucflp/files/2012/01/Reserve-Bank-of-India... And whereas in the present disorganization of the monetary systems of the world it is not possible to determine what will be suitable as a permanent basis for the Indian monetary system; But whereas it is expedient to make temporary provision on the basis of the existing monetary system, and to leave the question of the monetary standard best suited to India to be considered when the international monetary position has become sufficiently clear and stable to make it possible to frame permanent measures [2] http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/finance/the-indian-financial-code-whats-promising-whats-not/articleshow/48261950.cms http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/finance/the...
  - agumonkey 11y ago
    Well that's another thing. My comment was referring to the fact that many documentaries list 19th England as a tipping point about views on sexuality that backfired silently, turning people away from natural relationship into hidden ~perverted~ customs. I didn't know the British still had a hand in Indian economy but I guess they still need their old 'supervisor' behind the curtain.

mortenjorck 11y ago

Lincoln? Let's jump another 75 years ahead and look at the pop culture of the 1930s. One of the most popular comedy duos of the day, Laurel & Hardy, are, film after film, depicted sharing a bed (seriously, do a Google image search for it). It's presented no differently from how two men sharing an apartment would be today.