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Three Wise Men in a Bed: Bedsharing and Sexuality in Medieval Europe (2014)
- hyperpape 11y agoMore recent than that, you can point to Lincoln, who engaged in bedsharing with another man and wrote some (by modern standards) quite suggestive comments about the other man's thighs. It's been claimed that Lincoln was bisexual, but I don't think it's a common theory among historians. The range of acceptable "straight" behavior has greatly narrowed in the modern west. I've read that in India, it's still absolutely unremarkable for two men to walk down the streets holding hands, even though homosexuality is vastly less accepted than in the US.
- agumonkey 11y agoIt seems some cultures are angry at homosexuality being first class lifestyle. Northern African cultures will forget what one does with another same-sex person as long as they play the accepted citizen/family roles, aka get married traditionally with the according gender, make babies, don't talk about what things you may or may have not done. I'm really curious how pre antique cultures, tribes for instance, dealt with this.
- hyperpape 11y agoI think the idea that "this can happen, but can't ever be open" is present some places, but I'm also talking about completely non-sexual activities like the "awkward dude hug" in the United States.
- agumonkey 11y agoAgreed. Americans seems (just telling what I've read) friendly in facade but out of touch with deeper emotions, while Russians cold at first are said to be very very friendly once you get actual friends.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- notNow 11y agoI'm from a North African country and your comment sounds foreign to my ears. Maybe this is more fitting to Morocco or Tunisia but I can't attest to your observation that it's upheld here in Egypt.
- agumonkey 11y agoYou're probably right I can't recall which country it was. How is it in Egypt ? more liberty or complete rejection of non straight lifestyles ?
- wanderingstan 11y agoI spent a summer in Sumatra a decade ago. Western ex-pats warned me that after a while a native male friend would hold my hand, but that it was merely a sign that we were now friends. (I am male.) It indeed happened and I was happy to have had the prior explanation or it could have been quite confusing!
- dilap 11y agoWest-coast USian who visited India about 6 months ago; can confirm: I was very by how physically affectionate guys were with each other. I feel like we're in a weird place in the US where there's no room in our culture for male physical closeness that isn't sexual. (And it's pretty common to hear people say that the bits that persist, like e.g. wrestling or butt-pats in football, are secretly gay/repressed.) Optimistically, I'd say it's a side-effect of becoming more aware and accepting of homosexuality. It's still new and a bit of a battleground. As the newness fades away and it becomes simply normal and less polarized, more room will bloom again in the middle for an understanding of non-sexual forms of closeness.
- Retric 11y agoI think US Men have a lot more acceptable codified physical contact than non sexual/familial M/F contact. Greetings can involve hand shakes, fist bumbs, 1/2 hugs, or bumping shoulders etc. Two Male friends walking side by side it's OK for a third friend to be in extended contact with both. Hand holding might seem off, but when a guy is really drunk the steadying hand on a forearm or solder is considered OK. Even the 'extended' hug is considered ok if someone is dealing with significant trauma. PS: WW_ aka 'Professional' wrestling is often called gay because it's a male version of soap opera mixed with theater. Actual wrestling has long held 'sexual' overtones likely due to what it looks like to observers. where boxing/judo/karate sparing can also have a lot of physical contact, but rarely comes off as gay.
- girvo 11y ago> Actual wrestling has long held 'sexual' overtones likely due to what it looks like to observers That's a tautology. dilap's point was that our views in society have changed, and acceptable physical contact between males has narrowed in modern history.
- Retric 11y agoI will put it this way, while clothed there is a mild resemblance to sex both physically and the noises involved. Historically, people did this either partially or fully naked.
- yummyfajitas 11y agoA much more common theory is that Buchanan was gay. http://www.salon.com/2012/05/14/our_real_first_gay_president/ http://www.salon.com/2012/05/14/our_real_first_gay_president... Of course, given his weakly pro-slavery and otherwise terrible presidency, no one feels the need to devote a lot of publicity to this fact.
- aaron-lebo 11y agoFor some reason this comment was in the grey. When you look at the evidence, it seems quite obvious that Buchanan was, in fact, gay, which is interesting and completely detached from his performance.
- hyperpape 11y agoYup, my point was that Lincoln is generally not believed to have been bisexual, just like the bed sharing magi. As for Buchanan, that article feels rather polemical. Is there a more authoritative summary anywhere?
- rmc 11y ago> I've read that in India, it's still absolutely unremarkable for two men to walk down the streets holding hands, even though homosexuality is vastly less accepted than in the US. Not sure about India, but I've heard that in the Arab world, and seen in Ethiopia, that men holding hands doesn't imply homosexuality. Different cultures have different rules. A man kissing a man on the cheek in France doesn't mean they are gay.
- baddox 11y agoYes, the meaning of the gesture of holding hands is important. In the U.S., as far as I can tell it almost always indicates a romantic relationship (or adults chaperoning young children, obviously).
- falcolas 11y ago> or adults chaperoning young children, obviously Even that is too frequently associated with romance by a small but vocal population in the US.
- task_queue 11y agoIs this really a thing?
- fit2rule 11y agoFor some Dads, alas, yes. It is a thing. Open affection towards ones children, in some settings, can be a surefire way to attract unwanted attention from people who can only be described as hair-trigger SJW's, just waiting to pounce on any male they deem a threat, and 'offensive' behaviour such as holding ones daughters' hand, or giving her a kiss in greeting, has often gotten a Dad in more hassle than its worth. I think its atrocious - as a father, I can't think of anything worse than some social entity claiming that my affection for my children has a nefarious intent. It is really a common tragedy, alas - so much so that I see associate Fathers whose daughters just don't get balanced affinity from their parents. Yes, it is a thing, and it is a sad state of affairs. My boys get hugs and kisses regardless. Love shouldn't have to be defended from others, but alas PDA for children is a huge social issue in modern America - and England too, I have noticed. In some ways, our societies are terribly pornographic.
- sdenton4 11y agoAnother instance of this is in Moby Dick, which starts with the (great) scene of Ishmael sharing a bed with Queequeg before they ship out together. There's clearly no sexual relationship involved: it's just a way to save some money on a room, in an old-school version of the sharing economy, I suppose.
- nemo 11y agoMoby Dick has some seriously homoerotic content, though: "Squeeze! squeeze! squeeze! all the morning long; I squeezed that sperm till I myself almost melted into it; I squeezed that sperm till a strange sort of insanity came over me; and I found myself unwittingly squeezing my co-laborers’ hands in it, mistaking their hands for the gentle globules. Such an abounding, affectionate, friendly, loving feeling did this avocation beget; that at last I was continually squeezing their hands, and looking up into their eyes sentimentally; as much as to say,- Oh! my dear fellow beings, why should we longer cherish any social acerbities, or know the slightest ill-humor or envy! Come; let us squeeze hands all round; nay, let us all squeeze ourselves into each other; let us squeeze ourselves universally into the very milk and sperm of kindness." http://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/42/moby-dick/775/chapter-94-a-squeeze-of-the-hand/ http://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/42/moby-dick/775/chapter-94-a-sque...
- pcrh 11y agoIn the context of this thread, it's worth pointing out here that the sperm referred to isn't semen, but spermaceti. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_whale#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_whale#Etymology
- HCIdivision17 11y agoMy 12th grade lit teacher would likely note that we was rather squeezing seamen, and then leap into another lecture on Melville's literary craftiness. Gotta admit, though, it's a legendary pun.
- nemo 11y agoTrue, though in Melville's time the word "sperm" did also mean semen, and the homoeroticism isn't just in the word "sperm" but the whole of the passage. Moby Dick has a ton of homoerotic scenes like the man donning the whale's penis skin as a robe, or the various bed-sharing scenes with Ishmael and Queequeg including gems like "Queequeg now and then affectionately throwing his brown tattooed legs over mine, and then drawing them back; so entirely sociable and free and easy we were," and "Queequeg's arm thrown over me in the most loving and affectionate manner."
- 616c 11y agoJust as common in most parts of the A-rab world I have frequented. I would do it with friends who had befriended me, and I was proud since it meant I had integrated much more rapidly than American peers. When other study abroad students would look at me in shock or disgust, I loathed them. Study abroad should be more than transporting your ass to a different geographic location, it should mean exchanging cultural mores and ideas, but I digress.
- nmridul 11y agoIt has nothing to do with homosexuality. In India it is normal for a guy to hold the hand of a guy (or girl to hold another girl) while walking or even hug each other as a way of greeting. You can even see friends walking together having their hands on others shoulder. But you do the same to a person of opposite sex in public, it would raise some eyebrows. Unless, you are in a big metropolitan city.
- zaidf 11y agoit's still absolutely unremarkable for two men to walk down the streets holding hands, even though homosexuality is vastly less accepted than in the US. Totally. When I'm visiting India and taking a walk with cousins, it's almost awkward to not throw your arms around while we are walking. This is very visible during school lunch hours in India: you will see endless sights of straight men and women holding hands or with their arms around their best friend of same sex.
- joe_developer 11y agoThe practical reason for this is that you don't lose you friend in a crowd.
- sandGorgon 11y agoyes - this is true in India. For most Indians in the west, it is a very harsh learning that the west is a very dont-touch-me culture even between friends. Interestingly, the anti-gay law in India (Article 377) is an 1860 law that was brought over by the British. Hindu culture is resplendent with gay and transsexual gods. We dont have a deeply religious or cultural basis for an anti-gay law.
- agumonkey 11y ago> the anti-gay law in India (Article 377) is an 1860 law that was brought over by the British How unsurprising. And sad.
- sandGorgon 11y agoIt gets worse. The RBI Act, 1934, was proposed by the British as a ‘temporary measure’ [1]. This Act oversees 1 Trillion dollars of foreign exchange in India. The problem is that these acts cannot just be repealed - drafting a new financial code for the world's second fastest growing and seventh largest economy in the world... at a time when the growth rate is racing to touch 9% is a giant clusterfuck [2]. [1] http://www.bu.edu/bucflp/files/2012/01/Reserve-Bank-of-India-Act-of-1934.pdf http://www.bu.edu/bucflp/files/2012/01/Reserve-Bank-of-India... And whereas in the present disorganization of the monetary systems of the world it is not possible to determine what will be suitable as a permanent basis for the Indian monetary system; But whereas it is expedient to make temporary provision on the basis of the existing monetary system, and to leave the question of the monetary standard best suited to India to be considered when the international monetary position has become sufficiently clear and stable to make it possible to frame permanent measures [2] http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/finance/the-indian-financial-code-whats-promising-whats-not/articleshow/48261950.cms http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/finance/the...
- agumonkey 11y agoWell that's another thing. My comment was referring to the fact that many documentaries list 19th England as a tipping point about views on sexuality that backfired silently, turning people away from natural relationship into hidden ~perverted~ customs. I didn't know the British still had a hand in Indian economy but I guess they still need their old 'supervisor' behind the curtain.
- mortenjorck 11y agoLincoln? Let's jump another 75 years ahead and look at the pop culture of the 1930s. One of the most popular comedy duos of the day, Laurel & Hardy, are, film after film, depicted sharing a bed (seriously, do a Google image search for it). It's presented no differently from how two men sharing an apartment would be today.
- sago 11y ago> they ate every day at the same table ... and at night their beds did not separate them That doesn't read to me like a statement that they shared a bed, necessarily (though I acknowledge that, even if they did share a bed, it wouldn't be sexually suggestive). I read it as "they sat up all night and didn't go to bed". Other gay icons from a slightly creative historical reading: King David and Jonathan from the bible.
- a3voices 11y agoDo I really need to see this on HN?
- le_lenny_face 11y agoYes, you homophobe.
- mirimir 11y ago> they ate every day at the same table ... and at night their beds did not separate them I'm guessing that Philip and Richard were sharing female sexual partners.
- contingencies 11y agoThis sounds quite likely. After all, how much entertainment was there back then once you'd got drunk in a courtly setting with mistresses and dismissed the lutes? Surely sharing part of the regal harem was de-facto normal! One could assume all out orgies without retiring to bechambers were feasibly frequent since lewd behavior was unlikely to be questioned or reported in a totalitarian / death-for-criticism political environment.
- locacorten 11y agoAbout 40 years ago, when I was growing up in Southeastern Europe, in a place greatly influenced by both the Ottoman and the Habsburg empires, I do remember my grandma lying down in bed (covered) with one-two of her girlfriends after having lunch, coffee, and a cigarette. They were fully clothed and they continued chatting while lying on top of a made bed. The men were all gone to work during the day. Such a behavior would raise an eyebrow in the US, but it was completely normal in that corner of the world at the time.
- ig1 11y agoSuch behaviour would be perfectly normal in the UK at the present time as well. Are you sure it would raise an eye-brow in the US ?
- WalterSear 11y agoIt wouldn't.
- tbrownaw 11y agoWhy is one particular aspect of sexual preference singled out as (1) being ingrained from birth, rather than developing during childhood like every other aspect; and (2) necessarily being a core part of everyone's personal identity?
- danharaj 11y agoBecause people have been killed by people who are convinced they can force those people to conform to their values.
- jeremyt 11y ago"developing during childhood like every other aspect" This just keeps being repeated, as if it's fact, but it's just not true. In fact, it's less true than the opposite conclusion. It's been shown, repeatedly that toy preference, conflict resolution style, gender identity, and now even the genetic programming of the immune system are very different between the sexes, and exist at birth. I'm not aware of any reason to believe sexual preference doesn't fall into the same bucket. In fact, wasn't this the entire basis of the gay rights movement? The literature is extensive, and I don't have time to list all the references at the moment, but here's a couple to start off with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200804/why-do-boys-and-girls-prefer-different-toys https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamen... For further reading, you can browse through "The Optimistic Child" by Doctor Martin Seligman.
- jacalata 11y ago>n fact, wasn't this the entire basis of the gay rights movement? No, the basis for the gay rights movement was that being gay is not a justification for denying someone regular human rights. There are some people who only conditionally agree with this, if being gay is a way you are born and have no choice in it. There are other people who think it is repugnant to suggest that it is only ok for someone to be gay if they can't help it.
- anti-shill 11y ago
- daily_dose_420 11y agoWow this has a lot to do with computer science!
- dang 11y agoThe assumption here is mistaken. HN has never been only for stories about computer science—it's for anything and everything that's intellectually interesting. We're always running low on interesting non-technical links. Everybody please submit more!
- return0 11y agoI m more interested on why (mostly straight) people today are so concerned about how others perceive their sexuality , i.e. the "no homo" appendix, both in the real world and online. In none of the stories presented was the sexuality of the participants stated or written. I presume it's because they actually didn't care, or didnt consider it noteworthy.
- rustynails 11y agoAs someone with many gay friends, I find your comment totally unhelpful and antagonistic (you are trying to provoke a war but the benefit you seek is unclear. I'm aware of something I call "gay arrogance" that you might be exhibiting). Most people I know, whether they be homosexual or heterosexual want to make a statement about their sexuality. There are many hang ups in the gay community and as much prejudice as I see in the heterosexual community (breeders anyone??). To assume that homosexuality gives one some special exemption from hang ups is false. There is no more tolerance (it's just different tolerance). So, why are almost ALL people hung up about sex? Power, recognition, ego, self-definition. True story: I've upset gay friends kissing them on the cheek in public because they don't want to look gay - they tell me that I wouldn't understand. I'm very comfortable with my preferences, so it doesn't bother me.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- mrxd 11y agoBecause people who are (perceived as) gay are targets of discrimination and violence.
- beaner 11y agoAlso if the opposite sex thinks you're gay but you're straight, it's harder to attract them.
- lotsofcows 11y ago
- xorblurb 11y agoThere might be a pb in English with the term "sleeping with", given that it completely implies not its literal meaning. Because of that, it seems that it's quite difficult to describe sleeping with someone without having sex (and without any intent to) if I believe: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/148323/is-there-a-non-sexual-phrase-for-sleeping-with-someone http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/148323/is-there-a... It would be interesting to study the interaction between the language and the behaviour in this case.
- leoc 11y ago> Because of that, it seems that it's quite difficult to describe sleeping with someone without having sex (and without any intent to) if I believe: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/148323/is-there-a.. http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/148323/is-there-a.... There is such a term: to be bedfellows. But the practise is so uncommon these days that many living English speakers only think of it as metaphorical expression.
- lexcorvus 11y agoPhysical displays of affection among men is more common in cultures where such displays aren't likely to be misinterpreted as sexual in nature. For example, it's common in Saudi Arabia for men to hold hands and even kiss: https://melaniekillingervowell.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/bush-holds-hands-11-9-10.png?w=455 https://melaniekillingervowell.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/b... http://upload.democraticunderground.com/top10/09/362_kiss1.jpg http://upload.democraticunderground.com/top10/09/362_kiss1.j...
- w8rbt 11y agoPerhaps this is nitpicking, but the Bible does not mention three wise men anywhere. It does state that wise men gave Jesus three gifts. "And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh." - Matthew Chapter 2 http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-Chapter-2/ http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-Chapter-2/ Scholars think that there were actually hundreds of wise men who brought the gifts.
- carlob 11y agoI think the number three comes from the three gifts which are explicitly listed in Luke: gold, frankincense and myrrh.
- pmjordan 11y agoThat seems a likely explanation. It seems unlikely that there were actually only 3 magi, considering the bible's obsession with numbers even in places where it's unlikely that the number is accurate. It seems to me the authors would have leapt at the opportunity of putting a 3 in there, had they seen fit.
- charlescearl 11y agoThese are social constructions. In an African country (no name mentioned, But close to South Africa), it was/is not unusual to see men holding hands walking down the road. In this country the same two hypothetical men would be considered homophobic by U.S. standards. Gender roles identities are always modulated by time and place.
- justinator 11y agoIndia as well, although India is also generally seen as homophobic [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_India
- mmaunder 11y agoWe live in a time where we constantly extrapolate behaviors and it has some unfortunate consequences. An adult male who is friendly to a child in a park conjures up immediate and specific fears. Men holding hands in the streets of Tanzania is a source of fascination for tourists. Men kissing each other on the mouth in South Western France suggests something specific for visitors. In the English speaking west we are evolving into a world of behavioral taboos because so many behaviors are seen as heuristics that identify us as something. As Nigel Havers said to Christian Bale's character in Empire of the Sun: Perhaps we should "try not to think so much".