4 ms·

Scotland's deer are changing shape due to hybridisation

9 points by fiaz 17y ago

ryanelkins 17y ago
I don't really see what the big deal is. Isn't this how most species have come about over time? I guess this is an artificially created scenario somewhat, but I'm sure there are plenty of species that have come about due to humans importing animals from one place to another. It's not like horses in the US where there are no natural predators or anything. Now if they start coming across variants that can shoot lasers from their eyes, I'll be worried.
- Retric 17y ago
  Horses where re-imported to the US after they were hunted to extinction by Native Americans. However, most of their natural predators had also been killed off by Native Americans so your point is still accurate. Hybridization is actually not how new species are created, it normaly only produces fertile offspring when the parents are both membors of the same species just different breeds. This mixing will probably delay the creation of a new species by reducing the genetic differences between the populations.
- gb 17y ago
  I think the worry is the hybrid species might out compete the native red deer, or that fewer "pure" deer of either species will be left if hybridisation continues, as the hybrid offspring will be less picky about sticking to their own kind.
  - ryanelkins 17y ago
    I guess I still don't really understand what the concern is. I'm not saying there isn't one, just that the article didn't really make it clear why this is a problem, other than the mongrels will take over. Is it a big problem if the "pure" varieties dissappear?
    - daleharvey 17y ago
      people dont really like entire sub species being wiped out, which was close to happening with native red squirrels with the introduction of grey squirrels. theres an elements of playing god, but considering the effect we have already had on the planet I think making efforts to sustain what we currently have can only be a good thing.
  - smackay 17y ago
    For some insight into the politics of hybrids there is a huge row in the UK over the erdication of Ruddy Ducks (introduced from N. America) which are hybridizing with the remnant White-headed Duck population in Spain. A lot of the issues are discussed in the following which although presented from one side of the argument do give an idea of how messy this can get: http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/2009/12/plea-for-non-reporting-of-british-ruddy.html http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/2009/12/plea-for-... http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/2009/12/championing-cause-of-ruddy-duck-my.html http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/2009/12/championi...
- jcl 17y ago
  I have to wonder if part of the concern is because the pure red deer make better hunting trophies? The article specifically mentions that red deer antlers have more points, which I think is something only hunters worry about.
smackay 17y ago
There are quite a few projects going on in Scotland which are attempting to restore species that were extirpated over the past few centuries. Beavers are being re-introduced and the waters are tested every few years to see if it is politically acceptable to try and re-introduce wolves - the red deer currently have no natural predators (apart from humans and possibly a few eagles that take fawns). Sitka deer messing up the gene pool of red deer may cast some doubt on the overall goal of this effort and it will certainly add to the cost if Red Deer are to be kept "pure". The population of Red Deer is currently unsustainable - they are fed during the winter by the large estates to maximise their numbers for shooting. Hybrids might do some damage to this aspect of the economy by dimishing the trophy value to the estates. However there might some good from this if there are culls in the areas where hybrids are occurring. It would certainly improve the areas where the original pine forest is starting to recover by reducing the grazing pressure from deer.

9 points by fiaz 17y ago

I don't really see what the big deal is. Isn't this how most species have come about over time? I guess this is an artificially created scenario somewhat, but I'm sure there are plenty of species that have come about due to humans importing animals from one place to another. It's not like horses in the US where there are no natural predators or anything. Now if they start coming across variants that can shoot lasers from their eyes, I'll be worried.

Retric 17y ago
Horses where re-imported to the US after they were hunted to extinction by Native Americans. However, most of their natural predators had also been killed off by Native Americans so your point is still accurate. Hybridization is actually not how new species are created, it normaly only produces fertile offspring when the parents are both membors of the same species just different breeds. This mixing will probably delay the creation of a new species by reducing the genetic differences between the populations.
gb 17y ago
I think the worry is the hybrid species might out compete the native red deer, or that fewer "pure" deer of either species will be left if hybridisation continues, as the hybrid offspring will be less picky about sticking to their own kind.
- ryanelkins 17y ago
  I guess I still don't really understand what the concern is. I'm not saying there isn't one, just that the article didn't really make it clear why this is a problem, other than the mongrels will take over. Is it a big problem if the "pure" varieties dissappear?
  - daleharvey 17y ago
    people dont really like entire sub species being wiped out, which was close to happening with native red squirrels with the introduction of grey squirrels. theres an elements of playing god, but considering the effect we have already had on the planet I think making efforts to sustain what we currently have can only be a good thing.
- smackay 17y ago
  For some insight into the politics of hybrids there is a huge row in the UK over the erdication of Ruddy Ducks (introduced from N. America) which are hybridizing with the remnant White-headed Duck population in Spain. A lot of the issues are discussed in the following which although presented from one side of the argument do give an idea of how messy this can get: http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/2009/12/plea-for-non-reporting-of-british-ruddy.html http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/2009/12/plea-for-... http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/2009/12/championing-cause-of-ruddy-duck-my.html http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/2009/12/championi...
jcl 17y ago
I have to wonder if part of the concern is because the pure red deer make better hunting trophies? The article specifically mentions that red deer antlers have more points, which I think is something only hunters worry about.

smackay 17y ago

There are quite a few projects going on in Scotland which are attempting to restore species that were extirpated over the past few centuries. Beavers are being re-introduced and the waters are tested every few years to see if it is politically acceptable to try and re-introduce wolves - the red deer currently have no natural predators (apart from humans and possibly a few eagles that take fawns). Sitka deer messing up the gene pool of red deer may cast some doubt on the overall goal of this effort and it will certainly add to the cost if Red Deer are to be kept "pure". The population of Red Deer is currently unsustainable - they are fed during the winter by the large estates to maximise their numbers for shooting. Hybrids might do some damage to this aspect of the economy by dimishing the trophy value to the estates. However there might some good from this if there are culls in the areas where hybrids are occurring. It would certainly improve the areas where the original pine forest is starting to recover by reducing the grazing pressure from deer.