5 ms·

Not sure anyone wins from this. I don't see why we need government sticking up for free products. People have been choosing Firefox for years now and converting

Not sure anyone wins from this. I don't see why we need government sticking up for free products. People have been choosing Firefox for years now and converting their friends. What's the point of forcing the issue through law? I'm not sure why Microsoft is even making a web browser right now. I doubt there's a business case for it. So what exactly is anyone hoping to achieve with this?

bensummers 17y ago
Wouldn't it be nice if we could develop for standards compliant browsers which had the minimum of bugs, and there was innovation in this market? Microsoft's bundling of IE meant they had no incentive to produce a good product, and their lack of development has caused stagnation in the industry. Free markets are supposed to produce the highest quality goods at the lowest possible price. It obviously didn't work here, either because the free market theory is flawed or there wasn't a free market. The EU is trying to fix this.
- jswinghammer 17y ago
  Right but browsers are a case of the free market working. It turns out no one wants to pay for web browsers but people like building them so we have open source browsers to fill gaps in commercial offerings. There aren't any serious barriers to entry for web browsers so we have a free market.
  - bensummers 17y ago
    Thought experiments: 1) What would have happened if IE had to be bought, or at least downloaded and installed? 2) What if Microsoft had formed a new company to develop and distribute their browser, and this company was expected to make a profit? 3) What would have happened if Netscape wasn't forced to make their browser free because Microsoft subsidised the development of IE using profits from unrelated software? I suppose the underlying question is whether bundling the browser with a monopoly OS allows a free market in browsers, and if it didn't allow a free market, what should the remedy be?
    - jamesbritt 17y ago
      "What would have happened if IE had to be bought, or at least downloaded and installed?" Downloaded using what, exactly? Shipping a modern OS without a Web browser would be like shipping it without a file manager. "What would have happened if Netscape wasn't forced to make their browser free because Microsoft subsidised the development of IE using profits from unrelated software?" Browsers were free before IE came along. Why did Netscape think they could base a business on selling something that users could get for free?
- electromagnetic 17y ago
  Microsoft's bundling of IE meant it wasn't a free market. It's the same as how here, in ontario, my house comes hooked up to the local wing of the government hydro company who control my electricity, natural gas and water supply. Unless I'm already looking elsewhere, I don't know I have another option. I technically have a free market because I can hook my house up with solar, wind or even tap a river, I can drill a well, or I can hook my house up to an external propane tank . . . however, how is that really a free market? Similarly when I buy a PC and I'm handed it with IE, unless I'm already looking elsewhere, I don't know I have another option. I believe this is why the paid referral campaign worked so well for Firefox, because it was like an independent power company hanging signs around your town, suddenly you're told you have an option.
- jamesbritt 17y ago
  "... and there was innovation in this market? One of the biggest innovations was the introduction of the HTTPRequestObject and DHTML, later to be termed AJAX. It came from Microsoft and IE (5, I think). And Microsoft has a motivation to keep the bugs to a minimum so long as they have paying users (for the OS bundle) who are going to complain. "Free markets are supposed to produce the highest quality goods at the lowest possible price. It obviously didn't work here, either because the free market theory is flawed or there wasn't a free market." I don't follow. Are not Firefox and Opera high-quality goods? And Firefox is free. Where did they come from? A larger question is, should you support a free market because you believe in economic freedom, or should you support whatever system produces certain kinds of products, even if it means lessening economic freedom? It's similar to supporting free speech until someone says something you find unpleasant; a free market may give what the best products at the best price, but not always, or not right away. Adherence to the "free" part is more important than the "I want certain products on the market" part.

bensummers 17y ago

Wouldn't it be nice if we could develop for standards compliant browsers which had the minimum of bugs, and there was innovation in this market? Microsoft's bundling of IE meant they had no incentive to produce a good product, and their lack of development has caused stagnation in the industry. Free markets are supposed to produce the highest quality goods at the lowest possible price. It obviously didn't work here, either because the free market theory is flawed or there wasn't a free market. The EU is trying to fix this.

jswinghammer 17y ago
Right but browsers are a case of the free market working. It turns out no one wants to pay for web browsers but people like building them so we have open source browsers to fill gaps in commercial offerings. There aren't any serious barriers to entry for web browsers so we have a free market.
- bensummers 17y ago
  Thought experiments: 1) What would have happened if IE had to be bought, or at least downloaded and installed? 2) What if Microsoft had formed a new company to develop and distribute their browser, and this company was expected to make a profit? 3) What would have happened if Netscape wasn't forced to make their browser free because Microsoft subsidised the development of IE using profits from unrelated software? I suppose the underlying question is whether bundling the browser with a monopoly OS allows a free market in browsers, and if it didn't allow a free market, what should the remedy be?
  - jamesbritt 17y ago
    "What would have happened if IE had to be bought, or at least downloaded and installed?" Downloaded using what, exactly? Shipping a modern OS without a Web browser would be like shipping it without a file manager. "What would have happened if Netscape wasn't forced to make their browser free because Microsoft subsidised the development of IE using profits from unrelated software?" Browsers were free before IE came along. Why did Netscape think they could base a business on selling something that users could get for free?
electromagnetic 17y ago
Microsoft's bundling of IE meant it wasn't a free market. It's the same as how here, in ontario, my house comes hooked up to the local wing of the government hydro company who control my electricity, natural gas and water supply. Unless I'm already looking elsewhere, I don't know I have another option. I technically have a free market because I can hook my house up with solar, wind or even tap a river, I can drill a well, or I can hook my house up to an external propane tank . . . however, how is that really a free market? Similarly when I buy a PC and I'm handed it with IE, unless I'm already looking elsewhere, I don't know I have another option. I believe this is why the paid referral campaign worked so well for Firefox, because it was like an independent power company hanging signs around your town, suddenly you're told you have an option.
jamesbritt 17y ago
"... and there was innovation in this market? One of the biggest innovations was the introduction of the HTTPRequestObject and DHTML, later to be termed AJAX. It came from Microsoft and IE (5, I think). And Microsoft has a motivation to keep the bugs to a minimum so long as they have paying users (for the OS bundle) who are going to complain. "Free markets are supposed to produce the highest quality goods at the lowest possible price. It obviously didn't work here, either because the free market theory is flawed or there wasn't a free market." I don't follow. Are not Firefox and Opera high-quality goods? And Firefox is free. Where did they come from? A larger question is, should you support a free market because you believe in economic freedom, or should you support whatever system produces certain kinds of products, even if it means lessening economic freedom? It's similar to supporting free speech until someone says something you find unpleasant; a free market may give what the best products at the best price, but not always, or not right away. Adherence to the "free" part is more important than the "I want certain products on the market" part.