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"This is legitimate as they do the same to us." Can we talk about this not being okay (for a long term human future)? Imagine a world where groups of people di

"This is legitimate as they do the same to us." Can we talk about this not being okay (for a long term human future)? Imagine a world where groups of people didn't constantly put effort into undermining other groups in secret.

nickpsecurity 11y ago
There it goes. The inevitable "What if utopia existed? What if U.S. and Japan didn't continue to provide a lifestyle to their citizens based on mass exploitation and harm in other countries? What if nobody cheated to get ahead? What if human nature itself was rewired and all of existence did a 180?" I can't answer these because everything from my World History book back in school to the present news feed shows what you imagine has never existed. The only "What if?" I know the answer to is what happens when one side uses every tool to get ahead and one plays Scout's Honor: the side hustling ends up ahead. Best to focus our questions and efforts of changing our world on possibilities that might actually happen. Eliminating espionage isn't one of them.
mikeash 11y ago
Let's start with imagining how to make such a world come about. Until we have some idea of how to get there, there isn't much point in imagining what it would be like. Whether something is "okay" just doesn't matter here. International relations are the ultimate anarchy. There are no rules and no law, just what the participants can get away with.
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  Exactly. Even with rules preventing most of it, esp industrial espionage, you still need spy agencies to peak at other side to make sure they follow the rules. That's what US claims they do. They did in fact catch numerous attempts to steal big contracts with bribery. So, the game will continue to exist one way or another. And if public sector had total openness, they'd just use private contractors as they already do for some covert and especially criminal ops.

nickpsecurity 11y ago

There it goes. The inevitable "What if utopia existed? What if U.S. and Japan didn't continue to provide a lifestyle to their citizens based on mass exploitation and harm in other countries? What if nobody cheated to get ahead? What if human nature itself was rewired and all of existence did a 180?" I can't answer these because everything from my World History book back in school to the present news feed shows what you imagine has never existed. The only "What if?" I know the answer to is what happens when one side uses every tool to get ahead and one plays Scout's Honor: the side hustling ends up ahead. Best to focus our questions and efforts of changing our world on possibilities that might actually happen. Eliminating espionage isn't one of them.

mikeash 11y ago

Let's start with imagining how to make such a world come about. Until we have some idea of how to get there, there isn't much point in imagining what it would be like. Whether something is "okay" just doesn't matter here. International relations are the ultimate anarchy. There are no rules and no law, just what the participants can get away with.

nickpsecurity 11y ago
Exactly. Even with rules preventing most of it, esp industrial espionage, you still need spy agencies to peak at other side to make sure they follow the rules. That's what US claims they do. They did in fact catch numerous attempts to steal big contracts with bribery. So, the game will continue to exist one way or another. And if public sector had total openness, they'd just use private contractors as they already do for some covert and especially criminal ops.