7 ms·

> Why aren’t users saying, "There’s a magic machine in a data center that will only show me ads for stuff I really want to buy? Better turn off the ad blocker!"

by a3n 11y ago

> Why aren’t users saying, "There’s a magic machine in a data center that will only show me ads for stuff I really want to buy? Better turn off the ad blocker!" Regardless of the technical and privacy reasons for blocking, I just don't want to buy anything. I had no thought of a particular product before seeing the ad, and no thought afterword of buying it, despite its being just right for me. I just don't want anything, other than food, clothes when mine wear out, and occasional specific purchases like a car or a book (that I knew I wanted on my own). I think a big part of not wanting anything is that I don't watch cable or broadcast TV, just movies on Netflix or Vudu. I've inadvertently unconditioned myself from the purchase response. I'm almost sickened on the rare occasions when I see broadcast TV. "Really? I used to watch this constant, animated catalog of product? Bleah!"

pappyo 11y ago
> I just don't want to buy anything. But you still do. And you are susceptible to advertising signaling. You buy toilet paper, shampoo and soap (I hope), laundry detergent, gas, coffee (presumably), personal ailment products and so forth. There is no way anyone could possibly research every category products they buy. So you will use what information you have available to you...and that is probably the memory of certain brands spending a dump truck's worth of money on advertising.
- jschwartzi 11y ago
  The problem I have with targeted advertising isn't so much that it's advertising, but that when I look up information about plumbing on the internet and then visit a news website I get ads about toilets. That's really creepy to know that I'm being followed that closely.
  - dmarti 11y ago
    (author of the original article) That creeped out feeling is your brain letting you know about an information asymmetry -- someone knows more about you than you know about them. When you feel creeped out in a market setting, it's a warning that you're likely to get a bad deal. Response to some earlier comments on the article: http://zgp.org/~dmarti/business/arguments-for-targeted-advertising/ http://zgp.org/~dmarti/business/arguments-for-targeted-adver...
- a3n 11y ago
  Most of the items you mention, I buy the store brand. I'm already aware of the need for toilet paper and shampoo. There are some name brands where I've found the store brand won't do. And yes, there probably is some brand awareness from ads. I'm not saying I'm not affected by ads. I'm saying there's no motivation for me to turn off ad blockers; I'm doing fine.
- onedev 11y ago
  I turn to Amazon Reviews rather than Ads.
  - a3n 11y ago
    Me too. Whenever I want to avoid large ships, or replace my worn out three wolves moon tshirt, Amazon is my go to source.
- wutbrodo 11y ago
  > But you still do. And you are susceptible to advertising signaling. I honestly don't understand the confidence with which people claim this is universally true for absolutely everyone. I have no doubt that many or most people fall back on brand recognition, but it's really not that hard to avoid. To be clear, I don't doubt that brand awareness is driven largely by advertising, but no one has ever made a good case to me for why that necessarily affects purchase. When I buy a commodity item (soap, tp. etc), I usually buy the cheapest one that I haven't already found to be lacking (or if I hit upon a particular product that I found works well for me, I continue buying that). When I buy a big ticket item, it's almost by definition worth spending an hour doing research on, and for expensive items there are almost always ample reviews and articles representing both sides[1]. [1] I'm aware that ethics breaches like undisclosed payola have the ability to corrupt this line of investigation but it doesn't have to do with susceptibility to advertising signaling.
  - jbooth 11y ago
    Because your brain's a sponge, and all that stuff gets into your subconscious and affects your decision-making. In your examples given, it colors your perception of which products 'work well for you' and it biases that research you do for big-ticket purchases. Studies have demonstrated it time and time again -- if you think you're unaffected, well, maybe you're less affected by most, or maybe you're engaging in wishful thinking.
    - Yetanfou 11y ago
      Sure, the brain is a sponge and remembers many things which you're not consciously aware of. Those memories can affect your decisions. So far, so good. But... and there is a big 'but' here... Advertising does not always have the desired effect. I generally avoid commercial content - whether it be printed advertisements, sponsored content or otherwise - but it is nearly impossible to avoid being exposed to some commercial content, whether I like it or not. Those advertisers which, through sheer tenaciousness or downright trickery manage to make their way into my consciousness might not like what their presence there does: it actively lowers my perception of their products as viable choices. To me, advertising is like mould on a piece of bread, like slimy threads in a bottle of beer, like a wriggling meal worm in a bag of flour. It does many things, but it does not make me want to buy the related product. I probably conditioned myself to behave like this due to my dislike of the dishonesty in advertising, but this is less relevant. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one out there who reacts like this. Mentally connecting a brand or product to a piece of advertising just makes me think it is of low(er) quality, over-priced, designed to fail or otherwise deficient as the manufacturer needed to whittle down on production costs to pay for said advertising. It might not be true, but to me it feels like it is.
DanAndersen 11y ago
I think that's a great attitude. I recently found myself unsubscribing from various blogs that purported to highlight shopping deals, because I realized that such sites found their success in creating the suggestion that something was needed in the first place, and that I should get it because "it's on sale!" If I need something, I can probably find a deal, and if it's not an emergency I can put it on a list to check every so often. I think this saves me more money by avoiding unneeded purchases than getting minor sales on more stuff.
darkmighty 11y ago
I don't think I've actually bought a novel product because of an ad (but perhaps brand awareness has worked to remind me to consume things one time or another) -- but I still find it a lack of imagination to think there's absolutely nothing you could discover. Never had your friends show you an interesting product, tool, website? It could be an automated ad network showing it instead. Moreover, our individual experiences do not generalize well to the rest of the population if we're particularly frugal.
- a3n 11y ago
  > but I still find it a lack of imagination to think there's absolutely nothing you could discover. Perhaps. But the world is huge, and I still haven't worked my way through everything that I'm aware of on my own. > Never had your friends show you an interesting product, tool, website? Yes, all those things have happened. Even from ads. > our individual experiences do not generalize well to the rest of the population if we're particularly frugal. Absolutely. I'm an anecdote of one, just expressing my thoughts. The thing is, though, I'm not frugal for frugal's sake. I'm not frugal on purpose. It's just that in a universe of interesting things, there's enough interesting things outside the store doors that I personally don't need to go in to be interested. But that's me.
- Nadya 11y ago
  If the product is good enough for my friends to tell me about it by word-of-mouth, it's probably worth buying. People rarely give praise of things they buy unless it's a good thing. If the company trying to profit from selling the product is advertising the product - why should I trust them? Ads catered to me are surprisingly garbage. They assume because I like X, Y, and Z that I'll like a similar X, Y, or Z product. It's hilarious that, after buying a can opener, Amazon thinks I want to purchase more can openers. Or I bought a nice jacket so it suggests me more jackets. If I play one life-consuming MMO, Google suggests me more MMOs that I don't have time to play. If these services could make more intelligent assumptions, it might be worth disabling my ad block from time to time. But if you go browsing for a new car - you're going to get car ads. Even after you've purchased your new car. For weeks. (You need another car, right?)
irickt 11y ago
Personally I am in the same group as you: all ads are irrelevant and when I want something I go looking. I wonder if something like this could work to achieve a power balance: One or more of the ad blockers adds a service for ad tracking so I can see what vendors use what tactics. Non-advertisers could choose to register as such. Then the public can reward vendors based on their tactics.
morgante 11y ago
> just movies on Netflix or Vudu So you do want something. Edit: sorry if this come off as a little snarky. I think it's relevant because Netflix and its ilk are actually some of the best cases for advertising: they have a high customer LTV and were once not well-known at all. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising every year. Just because most advertising is irrelevant to a3n doesn't mean advertising is irrelevant. I likewise buy very few consumer goods, but I do appreciate advertising both as a consumer and an entrepreneur.
- a3n 11y ago
  Yep, you caught me. :)
- brandon73 11y ago
  Ugh. It's comments like this that make reading comments so much suck. You took one tiny misworded part of his entire post and highlighted it to make an issue out of it. When you knew dang well what his overall argument was and what he really meant with that tiny badly worded part. Stop adding to comment suck.
  - morgante 11y ago
    Sorry, but I do think it's relevent to the overall argument. Netflix and its ilk are actually some of the best cases for advertising: they have a high customer LTV and were once not well-known at all. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising every year. I feel like that undermines the entire argument. Just because most advertising is irrelevant to a3n doesn't mean advertising is irrelevant. I likewise buy very few consumer goods, but I do appreciate advertising both as a consumer and an entrepreneur.
    - brandon73 11y ago
      My point was that he wasn't actually saying he doesn't want for anything. Of course he does, and yes for him that includes Netflix. My point was that his argument was that he generally knows what he wants and doesn't want to be incessantly marketed to -- yet, because of bad wording, you made it sound like he was erroneously claiming he wants nothing. Almost by definition, we all want something. But that does not require constant marketing.
mirimir 11y ago
Yes! When I want to buy something, I rely on reviews. And I look at enough reviews to identify the biased ones, which are often based on the same press releases.
com2kid 11y ago
I'm in the same boat as you. I see lots of ads online for men's clothing, recipe and food websites, and the occasional car ad. Overall I'm rather happy with targeted ads. I see ads that are relevant to me, for sites and products I am actually interested in.
- danudey 11y ago
  I see ads that are somewhat relevant to me, for sites and products that I already knew about. I also get ads that are mistargeted but understandably so. Sure, you've got a great enterprise security management system. I do a lot of tech googling, but I'm not an enterprise, but it's close enough that I'll give them credit.
bunderbunder 11y ago
I'm in a similar boat re: broadcast TV. Whenever I'm in a place where I can't escape it (doctors' waiting rooms are the worst, as is the house of a certain family member who is a total TV junkie) I'm absolutely overwhelmed by the sudden increase in cognitive load I experience just by being in that environment. It really feels very invasive. I recently started using an adblocker. (I hate to do that to content providers who are dependent on advertising for revenue, but I don't wish to consent to being tracked by advertisers, and in light of that I've been left with little other recourse.) Since then, I've developed a similar sensation when I experience the unblocked Web. The sudden jump in noise levels is jarring, and almost feels like a form of assault. By contrast, I really don't mind subway ads. They're pervasive but easy to tune out, and I have absolutely responded to them. The most recent instance of me checking out a company I learned about from an ad on the train was a few hours ago, and I'm seriously considering purchasing their product. The article suggests a way to explain this contrast that's very plausible. It had never really occurred to me that perhaps I view advertising as this interesting sort of Veblen good. So perhaps that leads me to think of some kinds of advertising as pure noise not just because of the high noise but also because of the low signal.

by a3n 11y ago

pappyo 11y ago

> I just don't want to buy anything. But you still do. And you are susceptible to advertising signaling. You buy toilet paper, shampoo and soap (I hope), laundry detergent, gas, coffee (presumably), personal ailment products and so forth. There is no way anyone could possibly research every category products they buy. So you will use what information you have available to you...and that is probably the memory of certain brands spending a dump truck's worth of money on advertising.

jschwartzi 11y ago
The problem I have with targeted advertising isn't so much that it's advertising, but that when I look up information about plumbing on the internet and then visit a news website I get ads about toilets. That's really creepy to know that I'm being followed that closely.
- dmarti 11y ago
  (author of the original article) That creeped out feeling is your brain letting you know about an information asymmetry -- someone knows more about you than you know about them. When you feel creeped out in a market setting, it's a warning that you're likely to get a bad deal. Response to some earlier comments on the article: http://zgp.org/~dmarti/business/arguments-for-targeted-advertising/ http://zgp.org/~dmarti/business/arguments-for-targeted-adver...
a3n 11y ago
Most of the items you mention, I buy the store brand. I'm already aware of the need for toilet paper and shampoo. There are some name brands where I've found the store brand won't do. And yes, there probably is some brand awareness from ads. I'm not saying I'm not affected by ads. I'm saying there's no motivation for me to turn off ad blockers; I'm doing fine.
onedev 11y ago
I turn to Amazon Reviews rather than Ads.
- a3n 11y ago
  Me too. Whenever I want to avoid large ships, or replace my worn out three wolves moon tshirt, Amazon is my go to source.
wutbrodo 11y ago
> But you still do. And you are susceptible to advertising signaling. I honestly don't understand the confidence with which people claim this is universally true for absolutely everyone. I have no doubt that many or most people fall back on brand recognition, but it's really not that hard to avoid. To be clear, I don't doubt that brand awareness is driven largely by advertising, but no one has ever made a good case to me for why that necessarily affects purchase. When I buy a commodity item (soap, tp. etc), I usually buy the cheapest one that I haven't already found to be lacking (or if I hit upon a particular product that I found works well for me, I continue buying that). When I buy a big ticket item, it's almost by definition worth spending an hour doing research on, and for expensive items there are almost always ample reviews and articles representing both sides[1]. [1] I'm aware that ethics breaches like undisclosed payola have the ability to corrupt this line of investigation but it doesn't have to do with susceptibility to advertising signaling.
- jbooth 11y ago
  Because your brain's a sponge, and all that stuff gets into your subconscious and affects your decision-making. In your examples given, it colors your perception of which products 'work well for you' and it biases that research you do for big-ticket purchases. Studies have demonstrated it time and time again -- if you think you're unaffected, well, maybe you're less affected by most, or maybe you're engaging in wishful thinking.
  - Yetanfou 11y ago
    Sure, the brain is a sponge and remembers many things which you're not consciously aware of. Those memories can affect your decisions. So far, so good. But... and there is a big 'but' here... Advertising does not always have the desired effect. I generally avoid commercial content - whether it be printed advertisements, sponsored content or otherwise - but it is nearly impossible to avoid being exposed to some commercial content, whether I like it or not. Those advertisers which, through sheer tenaciousness or downright trickery manage to make their way into my consciousness might not like what their presence there does: it actively lowers my perception of their products as viable choices. To me, advertising is like mould on a piece of bread, like slimy threads in a bottle of beer, like a wriggling meal worm in a bag of flour. It does many things, but it does not make me want to buy the related product. I probably conditioned myself to behave like this due to my dislike of the dishonesty in advertising, but this is less relevant. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one out there who reacts like this. Mentally connecting a brand or product to a piece of advertising just makes me think it is of low(er) quality, over-priced, designed to fail or otherwise deficient as the manufacturer needed to whittle down on production costs to pay for said advertising. It might not be true, but to me it feels like it is.

DanAndersen 11y ago

I think that's a great attitude. I recently found myself unsubscribing from various blogs that purported to highlight shopping deals, because I realized that such sites found their success in creating the suggestion that something was needed in the first place, and that I should get it because "it's on sale!" If I need something, I can probably find a deal, and if it's not an emergency I can put it on a list to check every so often. I think this saves me more money by avoiding unneeded purchases than getting minor sales on more stuff.

darkmighty 11y ago

I don't think I've actually bought a novel product because of an ad (but perhaps brand awareness has worked to remind me to consume things one time or another) -- but I still find it a lack of imagination to think there's absolutely nothing you could discover. Never had your friends show you an interesting product, tool, website? It could be an automated ad network showing it instead. Moreover, our individual experiences do not generalize well to the rest of the population if we're particularly frugal.

a3n 11y ago
> but I still find it a lack of imagination to think there's absolutely nothing you could discover. Perhaps. But the world is huge, and I still haven't worked my way through everything that I'm aware of on my own. > Never had your friends show you an interesting product, tool, website? Yes, all those things have happened. Even from ads. > our individual experiences do not generalize well to the rest of the population if we're particularly frugal. Absolutely. I'm an anecdote of one, just expressing my thoughts. The thing is, though, I'm not frugal for frugal's sake. I'm not frugal on purpose. It's just that in a universe of interesting things, there's enough interesting things outside the store doors that I personally don't need to go in to be interested. But that's me.
Nadya 11y ago
If the product is good enough for my friends to tell me about it by word-of-mouth, it's probably worth buying. People rarely give praise of things they buy unless it's a good thing. If the company trying to profit from selling the product is advertising the product - why should I trust them? Ads catered to me are surprisingly garbage. They assume because I like X, Y, and Z that I'll like a similar X, Y, or Z product. It's hilarious that, after buying a can opener, Amazon thinks I want to purchase more can openers. Or I bought a nice jacket so it suggests me more jackets. If I play one life-consuming MMO, Google suggests me more MMOs that I don't have time to play. If these services could make more intelligent assumptions, it might be worth disabling my ad block from time to time. But if you go browsing for a new car - you're going to get car ads. Even after you've purchased your new car. For weeks. (You need another car, right?)

irickt 11y ago

Personally I am in the same group as you: all ads are irrelevant and when I want something I go looking. I wonder if something like this could work to achieve a power balance: One or more of the ad blockers adds a service for ad tracking so I can see what vendors use what tactics. Non-advertisers could choose to register as such. Then the public can reward vendors based on their tactics.

morgante 11y ago

> just movies on Netflix or Vudu So you do want something. Edit: sorry if this come off as a little snarky. I think it's relevant because Netflix and its ilk are actually some of the best cases for advertising: they have a high customer LTV and were once not well-known at all. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising every year. Just because most advertising is irrelevant to a3n doesn't mean advertising is irrelevant. I likewise buy very few consumer goods, but I do appreciate advertising both as a consumer and an entrepreneur.

a3n 11y ago
Yep, you caught me. :)
brandon73 11y ago
Ugh. It's comments like this that make reading comments so much suck. You took one tiny misworded part of his entire post and highlighted it to make an issue out of it. When you knew dang well what his overall argument was and what he really meant with that tiny badly worded part. Stop adding to comment suck.
- morgante 11y ago
  Sorry, but I do think it's relevent to the overall argument. Netflix and its ilk are actually some of the best cases for advertising: they have a high customer LTV and were once not well-known at all. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising every year. I feel like that undermines the entire argument. Just because most advertising is irrelevant to a3n doesn't mean advertising is irrelevant. I likewise buy very few consumer goods, but I do appreciate advertising both as a consumer and an entrepreneur.
  - brandon73 11y ago
    My point was that he wasn't actually saying he doesn't want for anything. Of course he does, and yes for him that includes Netflix. My point was that his argument was that he generally knows what he wants and doesn't want to be incessantly marketed to -- yet, because of bad wording, you made it sound like he was erroneously claiming he wants nothing. Almost by definition, we all want something. But that does not require constant marketing.

mirimir 11y ago

Yes! When I want to buy something, I rely on reviews. And I look at enough reviews to identify the biased ones, which are often based on the same press releases.

com2kid 11y ago

I'm in the same boat as you. I see lots of ads online for men's clothing, recipe and food websites, and the occasional car ad. Overall I'm rather happy with targeted ads. I see ads that are relevant to me, for sites and products I am actually interested in.

danudey 11y ago
I see ads that are somewhat relevant to me, for sites and products that I already knew about. I also get ads that are mistargeted but understandably so. Sure, you've got a great enterprise security management system. I do a lot of tech googling, but I'm not an enterprise, but it's close enough that I'll give them credit.

bunderbunder 11y ago

I'm in a similar boat re: broadcast TV. Whenever I'm in a place where I can't escape it (doctors' waiting rooms are the worst, as is the house of a certain family member who is a total TV junkie) I'm absolutely overwhelmed by the sudden increase in cognitive load I experience just by being in that environment. It really feels very invasive. I recently started using an adblocker. (I hate to do that to content providers who are dependent on advertising for revenue, but I don't wish to consent to being tracked by advertisers, and in light of that I've been left with little other recourse.) Since then, I've developed a similar sensation when I experience the unblocked Web. The sudden jump in noise levels is jarring, and almost feels like a form of assault. By contrast, I really don't mind subway ads. They're pervasive but easy to tune out, and I have absolutely responded to them. The most recent instance of me checking out a company I learned about from an ad on the train was a few hours ago, and I'm seriously considering purchasing their product. The article suggests a way to explain this contrast that's very plausible. It had never really occurred to me that perhaps I view advertising as this interesting sort of Veblen good. So perhaps that leads me to think of some kinds of advertising as pure noise not just because of the high noise but also because of the low signal.