3 ms·

See, the issue here is that you seem to think without a heavy layer of delusion, the world is fucked up. What about those of us who think the world is incredibl

by unalone 17y ago

See, the issue here is that you seem to think without a heavy layer of delusion, the world is fucked up. What about those of us who think the world is incredible and wonderful, and that there's more than enough magic for kids to spend a lifetime in love with without ever needing to be lied to in order to obtain it? Here's where I point out that the Santa Claus we know and love was invented outright by Coca Cola in the early 20th century in order to sell product. So it's not even that you're perpetuating an ancient fantasy, it's that you're perpetuating a marketing myth. I'm fine with pervasive marketing, but the fact that you think without it kids will be fucked up goes to show how effective Coke's strategy was.

axod 17y ago
I can see you're the dad in those clips ;) Lying (selectively and in moderation) is the foundation of having human relations with other people. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy the wonders of the world, share love and grow up to be well rounded interesting people. It's just another thing people need to learn - when to lie, and when to tell the truth. The idea that all lying is bad, is ridiculous. My daughter lost a tooth yesterday, and we've told her to put it under her pillow so the tooth fairy can give her some money for it. Is that also wrong in some strange way? It's an example of many lies that people tell when people are worried/in pain, that make them feel better. And FWIW, Cokes strategy is lame, since we buy Pepsi due to the better taste. I don't think the connection between Father Christmas and Coke is extremely strong in the UK, it's just another corp. that has TV ads on around xmas featuring him.
- randallsquared 17y ago
  > Lying (selectively and in moderation) is the foundation of having human relations with other people. Wow.
  - axod 17y ago
    "Does my bum look big in this?" Is the typical example. Lying here also known as caring about other peoples feelings, and how they would feel if you did tell them the truth.
    - randallsquared 17y ago
      I would say that in some cases, lying is a means for interacting with people while preserving their feelings, but not the only means, and certainly not foundational. Finding out one's been lied to is also pretty destructive of feelings...
      - axod 17y ago
        I said 'foundational' because if you don't know how/when to lie to protect peoples feelings, or to make them feel better, then you're not going to have very good relationships at all.
- unalone 17y ago
  Coke's strategy was back in the 20s, dude. I don't think anybody on this site was old enough to remember it. But they created the modern image of Santa Claus, and we still use it. When you show your kid the cheery fat guy in the red suit, you're showing him what was once an ad. I'm not saying that lying is inherently evil or anything. I'm just saying that I don't see the point in telling fibs to kids, particularly dull, unimaginative ones. If I'm going to peddle in myths, there're a thousand more fascinating ones to tell, and I can tell them and let my kids know it was a story. Or d'you think that letting kids know it's a fiction spoils the fun? But me, I'm a fan of telling people the truth even when it's not socially correct. So perhaps I'm not this perfect little social nook that fits into your model. I see nothing wrong with letting young kids know that there's pain to go with all the pleasure. Means growing up they won't be the cynical shits I'm forced to deal with daily right now.
  - axod 17y ago
    I know this fairy tale sounds good - coke invented santa and it's all a marketing ploy - but it's untrue. http://www.christmascarnivals.com/father-christmas/father-christmas-figure.html http://www.christmascarnivals.com/father-christmas/father-ch... "The figure of Father Christmas as a jolly and friendly old man, with a small stature but a big heart, emerged through the writings and paintings of the artists during the 1800s. Clement Moore was the first to describe our Father Christmas as the chubby old man, with rosy cheeks, wearing a furry overcoat and hat in his poem, which inspired Robert Weir to paint the first portrait of Santa Claus in 1837. He made Santa wear a short suit and a stocking hat as he puffs at his long clay pipe. Finally it was in 1863, that we get to see Santa more as a real person through the pictures drawn by Thomas Nast. This is the final Father Christmas figure that we now commonly see being used for Christmas accessories and ornaments." And a picture from 1800s shows him as the 'cheery fat guy in the red suit'. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/522799/67600/Merry-Old-Santa-Claus-by-Thomas-Nast# http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/522799/67600/M... So no, when I show my kids pictures of Santa Claus, it's absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Coke.
    - unalone 17y ago
      Coke consolidated the image of Santa Claus and popularized that exact image of him. They didn't invent the red, but without their work it would not have become the de facto standard.

by unalone 17y ago

axod 17y ago

I can see you're the dad in those clips ;) Lying (selectively and in moderation) is the foundation of having human relations with other people. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy the wonders of the world, share love and grow up to be well rounded interesting people. It's just another thing people need to learn - when to lie, and when to tell the truth. The idea that all lying is bad, is ridiculous. My daughter lost a tooth yesterday, and we've told her to put it under her pillow so the tooth fairy can give her some money for it. Is that also wrong in some strange way? It's an example of many lies that people tell when people are worried/in pain, that make them feel better. And FWIW, Cokes strategy is lame, since we buy Pepsi due to the better taste. I don't think the connection between Father Christmas and Coke is extremely strong in the UK, it's just another corp. that has TV ads on around xmas featuring him.

randallsquared 17y ago
> Lying (selectively and in moderation) is the foundation of having human relations with other people. Wow.
- axod 17y ago
  "Does my bum look big in this?" Is the typical example. Lying here also known as caring about other peoples feelings, and how they would feel if you did tell them the truth.
  - randallsquared 17y ago
    I would say that in some cases, lying is a means for interacting with people while preserving their feelings, but not the only means, and certainly not foundational. Finding out one's been lied to is also pretty destructive of feelings...
    - axod 17y ago
      I said 'foundational' because if you don't know how/when to lie to protect peoples feelings, or to make them feel better, then you're not going to have very good relationships at all.
unalone 17y ago
Coke's strategy was back in the 20s, dude. I don't think anybody on this site was old enough to remember it. But they created the modern image of Santa Claus, and we still use it. When you show your kid the cheery fat guy in the red suit, you're showing him what was once an ad. I'm not saying that lying is inherently evil or anything. I'm just saying that I don't see the point in telling fibs to kids, particularly dull, unimaginative ones. If I'm going to peddle in myths, there're a thousand more fascinating ones to tell, and I can tell them and let my kids know it was a story. Or d'you think that letting kids know it's a fiction spoils the fun? But me, I'm a fan of telling people the truth even when it's not socially correct. So perhaps I'm not this perfect little social nook that fits into your model. I see nothing wrong with letting young kids know that there's pain to go with all the pleasure. Means growing up they won't be the cynical shits I'm forced to deal with daily right now.
- axod 17y ago
  I know this fairy tale sounds good - coke invented santa and it's all a marketing ploy - but it's untrue. http://www.christmascarnivals.com/father-christmas/father-christmas-figure.html http://www.christmascarnivals.com/father-christmas/father-ch... "The figure of Father Christmas as a jolly and friendly old man, with a small stature but a big heart, emerged through the writings and paintings of the artists during the 1800s. Clement Moore was the first to describe our Father Christmas as the chubby old man, with rosy cheeks, wearing a furry overcoat and hat in his poem, which inspired Robert Weir to paint the first portrait of Santa Claus in 1837. He made Santa wear a short suit and a stocking hat as he puffs at his long clay pipe. Finally it was in 1863, that we get to see Santa more as a real person through the pictures drawn by Thomas Nast. This is the final Father Christmas figure that we now commonly see being used for Christmas accessories and ornaments." And a picture from 1800s shows him as the 'cheery fat guy in the red suit'. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/522799/67600/Merry-Old-Santa-Claus-by-Thomas-Nast# http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/522799/67600/M... So no, when I show my kids pictures of Santa Claus, it's absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Coke.
  - unalone 17y ago
    Coke consolidated the image of Santa Claus and popularized that exact image of him. They didn't invent the red, but without their work it would not have become the de facto standard.