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Yup, and comments in other threads. >I currently work as an aircraft telemetry and instrumentation engineer, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9907687 http

Yup, and comments in other threads. >I currently work as an aircraft telemetry and instrumentation engineer, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9907687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9907687

engi_nerd 11y ago
Correct. No denying this. But I'm not here to be a jerk or a shill. Just talking about things I have some experience with.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  You've got a connection to the industry, and an apparent emotional response to F-35 criticism. (but who wants to about a subject which they are indifferent to? That's no fun.) For all we know your livelihood may depend in some way upon the F-35. I'm not saying you're always wrong, but I am going to naturally skeptical.
  - engi_nerd 11y ago
    I have admitted my passion elsewhere in this thread. Is the population of HN not passionate about things? This is, from my years long lurking of the site (I have lurked here since at least 2009 that I can clearly remember) one of the places on the internet where passion can be shared in a responsible way. I do not seek to bash those who doubt the plane on a personal level. What I would hope is that I address their objections from fact. Now, if the facts support their arguments, then I would like to think that I would be the first to admit that. But if the facts are otherwise, then I hope I've done a good job of linking to and explaining public information. And this interaction has sort of confirmed why I am always hesitant to talk about what I do (aside from the obvious reasons why people in this industry are encouraged to not say much), because people see that and make some disparaging remarks. I am not thrilled.
    - nitrogen 11y ago
      I am not thrilled. Only quoting final sentence since I'm typing this on a phone... Without excusing the behavior of your accusers, I think it's probably motivated by the association between the incredibly fascinating engineering work, and the military "work" to which that engineering will later be applied. It's always going to be difficult to converse productively with such an elephant in the room, but your patience in the thread is exemplary.
      - engi_nerd 11y ago
        To be blunt: you wind up working on things that are explicitly designed to kill other human beings. That is what you are saying. That's the elephant. Many here would find such a thing immoral and unethical. I know that. I have my own personal reasons for doing what I do. They make sense for my own life. So fnordfnordfnord already linked to a comment where I mention working on sounding rockets (in addition to the aircraft/telemetry) Those are for purely scientific research. I've done the peaeceful engineering thing, I guess. And the program does some good science! But if you look at my comment history more, I have some comments where I talk about working in a really bad environment. Guess what? Same place, the sounding rocket program. So I left and changed jobs. To be honest, I try not to worry about all of this so much, mainly because I'm actually happy to go to work now. I am, however, usually happy to discuss this seeming contradiction of trying to be a moral/ethical person while working in aerospace... Just because I don't think about it every day doesn't mean I haven't examined and reflected upon it.
    - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
      >Is the population of HN not passionate about things? Of course. And by the way, my skepticism of your motives isn't meant to be taken personal. Apologies if you're insulted. Maybe it's just me, but I think it's appropriate/proper to disclose in advance that you work in aerospace if you're going to argue pro or against a huge aerospace defense project. Since the disclosure of the existence of things like JTRIG and some of the HB Gary antics I don't think it is too far-fetched that one might encounter some sketchy things in discussion forums. >(aside from the obvious reasons why people in this industry are encouraged to not say much) I'll tell you that a comment you made earlier made my spidey-sense tingle. You mentioned not linking some already-leaked to the public report because it is ITAR controlled, and that pretty much makes you as a person who has a clearance/connection to military/defense work. >because people see that and make some disparaging remarks. I am not thrilled. You can't make everyone like you, especially if your identity is tied to a politically polarizing industry; and you definitely can't make everyone like tremendously expensive weapons projects. Even then, it's not personal. Some of the people who are unabashedly critical of defense/aerospace may well have some very good reasons for it.
dang 11y ago
You guys are out of line. You should be grateful that someone with professional expertise is here talking about what they know, not attempting to smear them. Groundless insinuations of shillage and dishonesty are not ok here. They poison the discourse, and you owe greater respect to your fellow HNers. Please don't do this again. All: please flag such comments when you see them in HN threads. engi_nerd likes the F-35, lots of other people don't, that's fine. Have at it with arguments, not cheap shots.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  No, it's absolutely not out of line. Gaslighting, astroturfing, and worse are real things that happen on the internet. Note that I never said shill, though I would if I saw evidence that warranted it. I simply pointed out a relevant post from the commenter's history. If you'll note, I think that engi_nerd and I achieved an amicable understanding of each other at about the same time you were posting your comment.
  - dang 11y ago
    > it's absolutely not out of line It's my job to draw the line. > I never said shill My comment was addressed to the three of you. [I deleted an unfair bit here.] > Gaslighting, astroturfing, and worse are real things that happen on the internet Yes, I spend my days combating those things on HN and my evenings writing code to combat them on HN. Something else that's real on the internet, and poisonous, is commenters groundlessly accusing each other of those things, or insinuating them. That affects civil discourse the way salt affects a slug. We're not letting it become a thing here. See https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=true&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment&query=by:dang%20astroturfing https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=true&page=0&dateR... for countless further explanations. Anyone with genuine concerns about astroturfing on HN should email them to us at hn@ycombinator.com. We promise to take them seriously. We also promise to look for evidence. > engi_nerd and I achieved an amicable understanding of each other I hope so. I don't believe anyone meant harm or even did anything very harmful, but we've learned that places like HN are vulnerable to tragedies of the commons: small, unintentional slips add up to systemic toxicity. That's the default, so there has to be a countervailing vector. Also, the ganging-up-on spirit that was emerging there was dismaying.

Yup, and comments in other threads. >I currently work as an aircraft telemetry and instrumentation engineer, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9907687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9907687

engi_nerd 11y ago

Correct. No denying this. But I'm not here to be a jerk or a shill. Just talking about things I have some experience with.

fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
You've got a connection to the industry, and an apparent emotional response to F-35 criticism. (but who wants to about a subject which they are indifferent to? That's no fun.) For all we know your livelihood may depend in some way upon the F-35. I'm not saying you're always wrong, but I am going to naturally skeptical.
- engi_nerd 11y ago
  I have admitted my passion elsewhere in this thread. Is the population of HN not passionate about things? This is, from my years long lurking of the site (I have lurked here since at least 2009 that I can clearly remember) one of the places on the internet where passion can be shared in a responsible way. I do not seek to bash those who doubt the plane on a personal level. What I would hope is that I address their objections from fact. Now, if the facts support their arguments, then I would like to think that I would be the first to admit that. But if the facts are otherwise, then I hope I've done a good job of linking to and explaining public information. And this interaction has sort of confirmed why I am always hesitant to talk about what I do (aside from the obvious reasons why people in this industry are encouraged to not say much), because people see that and make some disparaging remarks. I am not thrilled.
  - nitrogen 11y ago
    I am not thrilled. Only quoting final sentence since I'm typing this on a phone... Without excusing the behavior of your accusers, I think it's probably motivated by the association between the incredibly fascinating engineering work, and the military "work" to which that engineering will later be applied. It's always going to be difficult to converse productively with such an elephant in the room, but your patience in the thread is exemplary.
    - engi_nerd 11y ago
      To be blunt: you wind up working on things that are explicitly designed to kill other human beings. That is what you are saying. That's the elephant. Many here would find such a thing immoral and unethical. I know that. I have my own personal reasons for doing what I do. They make sense for my own life. So fnordfnordfnord already linked to a comment where I mention working on sounding rockets (in addition to the aircraft/telemetry) Those are for purely scientific research. I've done the peaeceful engineering thing, I guess. And the program does some good science! But if you look at my comment history more, I have some comments where I talk about working in a really bad environment. Guess what? Same place, the sounding rocket program. So I left and changed jobs. To be honest, I try not to worry about all of this so much, mainly because I'm actually happy to go to work now. I am, however, usually happy to discuss this seeming contradiction of trying to be a moral/ethical person while working in aerospace... Just because I don't think about it every day doesn't mean I haven't examined and reflected upon it.
  - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
    >Is the population of HN not passionate about things? Of course. And by the way, my skepticism of your motives isn't meant to be taken personal. Apologies if you're insulted. Maybe it's just me, but I think it's appropriate/proper to disclose in advance that you work in aerospace if you're going to argue pro or against a huge aerospace defense project. Since the disclosure of the existence of things like JTRIG and some of the HB Gary antics I don't think it is too far-fetched that one might encounter some sketchy things in discussion forums. >(aside from the obvious reasons why people in this industry are encouraged to not say much) I'll tell you that a comment you made earlier made my spidey-sense tingle. You mentioned not linking some already-leaked to the public report because it is ITAR controlled, and that pretty much makes you as a person who has a clearance/connection to military/defense work. >because people see that and make some disparaging remarks. I am not thrilled. You can't make everyone like you, especially if your identity is tied to a politically polarizing industry; and you definitely can't make everyone like tremendously expensive weapons projects. Even then, it's not personal. Some of the people who are unabashedly critical of defense/aerospace may well have some very good reasons for it.

dang 11y ago

You guys are out of line. You should be grateful that someone with professional expertise is here talking about what they know, not attempting to smear them. Groundless insinuations of shillage and dishonesty are not ok here. They poison the discourse, and you owe greater respect to your fellow HNers. Please don't do this again. All: please flag such comments when you see them in HN threads. engi_nerd likes the F-35, lots of other people don't, that's fine. Have at it with arguments, not cheap shots.

fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
No, it's absolutely not out of line. Gaslighting, astroturfing, and worse are real things that happen on the internet. Note that I never said shill, though I would if I saw evidence that warranted it. I simply pointed out a relevant post from the commenter's history. If you'll note, I think that engi_nerd and I achieved an amicable understanding of each other at about the same time you were posting your comment.
- dang 11y ago
  > it's absolutely not out of line It's my job to draw the line. > I never said shill My comment was addressed to the three of you. [I deleted an unfair bit here.] > Gaslighting, astroturfing, and worse are real things that happen on the internet Yes, I spend my days combating those things on HN and my evenings writing code to combat them on HN. Something else that's real on the internet, and poisonous, is commenters groundlessly accusing each other of those things, or insinuating them. That affects civil discourse the way salt affects a slug. We're not letting it become a thing here. See https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=true&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment&query=by:dang%20astroturfing https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=true&page=0&dateR... for countless further explanations. Anyone with genuine concerns about astroturfing on HN should email them to us at hn@ycombinator.com. We promise to take them seriously. We also promise to look for evidence. > engi_nerd and I achieved an amicable understanding of each other I hope so. I don't believe anyone meant harm or even did anything very harmful, but we've learned that places like HN are vulnerable to tragedies of the commons: small, unintentional slips add up to systemic toxicity. That's the default, so there has to be a countervailing vector. Also, the ganging-up-on spirit that was emerging there was dismaying.