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> Please refrain from using epithets to caricature opposing views. This includes calling another group 'anti-choice', 'anti-life', 'pro-coercion', or 'pro-death

> Please refrain from using epithets to caricature opposing views. This includes calling another group 'anti-choice', 'anti-life', 'pro-coercion', or 'pro-death'. I don't really like the term 'anti-choice', but 'pro-life' is also an epithet that many pro-choice people dislike (because it implies that pro-choice people somehow oppose life). 'pro/anti-abortion' are problematic for similar reasons. So while I'd like to use an uncontended term, I really don't know of one.

nickff 11y ago
Your opponents are of a similar mind. Consider what happens when I switch the 'life' and 'choice' in your comment. >I don't really like the term 'anti-life', but 'pro-choice' is also an epithet that many pro-life people dislike (because it implies that pro-life people somehow oppose choice). Your reasoning is just as strong when used against you, as when you employ it.
- chimeracoder 11y ago
  > Your reasoning is just as strong when used against you, as when you employ it. It fails by parity of reasoning. So what neutral term would you suggest we use instead that is acceptable to everyone being described? > Your opponents are of a similar mind. Please don't make assumptions about my views on abortion or who my "opponents" are, especially since I've very explicitly tried to refrain from opining on the matter.
  - nickff 11y ago
    >"So what neutral term would you suggest we use instead that is acceptable to everyone being described?" I would suggest that you refer to people by their preferred epithet, unless you can find a neutral one (which I cannot). This is common practice in most other ideological situations, (i.e. religions, political groups, and philosophical creeds,) and appears to be moderately effective at avoiding distraction from the discussion. >"Please don't make assumptions about my views on abortion or who my "opponents" are, especially since I've very explicitly tried to refrain from opining on the matter." I would be geniunely surprised if you self-described as 'anti-choice' (as I have never heard anyone describe themselves as anti-choice or anti-life outside of a joke,) so please correct me if I am wrong, but I stand by my assumption until it is proven false.
Frondo 11y ago
Speaking as someone who approves of the legal reality that abortion is a woman's right, I'm fine with pro-choice/pro-life. I don't think the aborted material constitutes a life, and the anti-abortionists' view that it does just makes me roll my eyes at their attempts to change that very common view with word games.
- mistermann 11y ago
  If you do nothing and let nature take it's course, in the majority of cases this material will proceed to be born as a human. If someone intervenes via abortion, that most likely outcome of a person being born will not happen. The willfully chosen action of an individual prevents a child from being born, whereas if they did nothing, the child would be born. I can see how word games might make you roll your eyes, but does the above line of thinking also make you roll your eyes? I'm not suggesting we outlaw abortion, but I don't think it's that much to ask that people be honest about precisely what is happening. There are word games being played on both sides of this disagreement.
  - Frondo 11y ago
    There's lots of man-made things that stop nature from "taking its course," like condoms or planning around a woman's menstrual cycle. An abortion is just another of those man-made things that stops nature from "taking its course". Aaand, it's been going on as long as people have been people. We've been controlling pregnancy as a species for millennia. Abortion, in the medical, clinical sense, is just a safe, reliable, and legal way to do so, that also happily gives a woman body autonomy (a good place for us to get to, after so much of our history telling women their bodies aren't theirs). Hey, maybe you don't like any of those, and sex should be purely procreative in its goals. Some people do feel that way, maybe you're one of them.
    - mistermann 11y ago
      Now who's playing word games?
dennisgorelik 11y ago
> 'pro-life' is also an epithet that many pro-choice people dislike (because it implies that pro-choice people somehow oppose life). Many pro-life people dislike epithet "pro-choice" (because it implies that pro-life people somehow oppose choice). Actually both implications are sort of correct. That whole debate is about what is more important: the right of fetus to live or freedom of choice of a pregnant woman.

nickff 11y ago

Your opponents are of a similar mind. Consider what happens when I switch the 'life' and 'choice' in your comment. >I don't really like the term 'anti-life', but 'pro-choice' is also an epithet that many pro-life people dislike (because it implies that pro-life people somehow oppose choice). Your reasoning is just as strong when used against you, as when you employ it.

chimeracoder 11y ago
> Your reasoning is just as strong when used against you, as when you employ it. It fails by parity of reasoning. So what neutral term would you suggest we use instead that is acceptable to everyone being described? > Your opponents are of a similar mind. Please don't make assumptions about my views on abortion or who my "opponents" are, especially since I've very explicitly tried to refrain from opining on the matter.
- nickff 11y ago
  >"So what neutral term would you suggest we use instead that is acceptable to everyone being described?" I would suggest that you refer to people by their preferred epithet, unless you can find a neutral one (which I cannot). This is common practice in most other ideological situations, (i.e. religions, political groups, and philosophical creeds,) and appears to be moderately effective at avoiding distraction from the discussion. >"Please don't make assumptions about my views on abortion or who my "opponents" are, especially since I've very explicitly tried to refrain from opining on the matter." I would be geniunely surprised if you self-described as 'anti-choice' (as I have never heard anyone describe themselves as anti-choice or anti-life outside of a joke,) so please correct me if I am wrong, but I stand by my assumption until it is proven false.

Frondo 11y ago

Speaking as someone who approves of the legal reality that abortion is a woman's right, I'm fine with pro-choice/pro-life. I don't think the aborted material constitutes a life, and the anti-abortionists' view that it does just makes me roll my eyes at their attempts to change that very common view with word games.

mistermann 11y ago
If you do nothing and let nature take it's course, in the majority of cases this material will proceed to be born as a human. If someone intervenes via abortion, that most likely outcome of a person being born will not happen. The willfully chosen action of an individual prevents a child from being born, whereas if they did nothing, the child would be born. I can see how word games might make you roll your eyes, but does the above line of thinking also make you roll your eyes? I'm not suggesting we outlaw abortion, but I don't think it's that much to ask that people be honest about precisely what is happening. There are word games being played on both sides of this disagreement.
- Frondo 11y ago
  There's lots of man-made things that stop nature from "taking its course," like condoms or planning around a woman's menstrual cycle. An abortion is just another of those man-made things that stops nature from "taking its course". Aaand, it's been going on as long as people have been people. We've been controlling pregnancy as a species for millennia. Abortion, in the medical, clinical sense, is just a safe, reliable, and legal way to do so, that also happily gives a woman body autonomy (a good place for us to get to, after so much of our history telling women their bodies aren't theirs). Hey, maybe you don't like any of those, and sex should be purely procreative in its goals. Some people do feel that way, maybe you're one of them.
  - mistermann 11y ago
    Now who's playing word games?

dennisgorelik 11y ago

> 'pro-life' is also an epithet that many pro-choice people dislike (because it implies that pro-choice people somehow oppose life). Many pro-life people dislike epithet "pro-choice" (because it implies that pro-life people somehow oppose choice). Actually both implications are sort of correct. That whole debate is about what is more important: the right of fetus to live or freedom of choice of a pregnant woman.