6 ms·

Web We Want

68 points by signaler 11y ago

dubwubz 11y ago
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, no.
popee 11y ago
The web I want is merge of SIP and rendering engines for HTML5/css. SIP is federated and decentralized but really similar to HTTP. The problem is in difference between URL and URI, because URIs are hosted/registered directly on user computers/agents, so for example it's not possible to take advantage of javascript/css. If someone could hacks this, transition would be really smooth. But we already have webRTC, why SIP? It's standardized, mature and more basic protocol. Ofc WebRTC is based on SIP, but with who knows how many additional layers.
- pjc50 11y ago
  SIP? SIP is terrible, it's an attempt at replicating the telco model of separate control plane vs talk channel of a traditional telephone company. URIs are hosted/registered directly on user's computer, so for example it's not possible to take advantage of javascript/css This doesn't follow either. If I host a webpage on my personal computer, I can host the js/css in exactly the same way.
  - popee 11y ago
    > SIP? SIP is terrible, it's an attempt at replicating the telco model of separate control plane vs talk channel of a traditional telephone company. Good point and I agree, but it solves problem of direct communication between users (NAT traversal). It would be great if SIP had plain and simple GET method (without need for session/dialog). > This doesn't follow either. If I host a webpage on my personal computer, I can host the js/css in exactly the same way. How can I get your js/css from outside, if you are behind NAT? STUN? NAT traversal is already part of standard SIP infrastructure. Sorry on stubbornness, just trying to brainstorm a little.
    - pjc50 11y ago
      STUN is indeed used by SIP to traverse NAT, as part of a whole pile of techniques called ICE. However, this ultimately requires that you have a central server on which you can "advertise" your SIP presence and exchange SDP data. Yes, the session payload transport (RTP) is peer to peer, but the signalling still requires a central point. > How can I get your js/css from outside, if you are behind NAT? The same way you get the HTML, whatever approach is used. I don't think it's impossible to build a system involving distributing "advertisements" saying how to reach systems on a distributed hash table, then using either ports opened through UPNP on home routers or a "supernode" collection of STUN servers to communicate to home systems. There are three big downsides to this which are probably why we've not seen one yet: - no way to monetise it if it's truly distributed and open source => reduced incentive to build and maintain - no central party to fight spam and abuse => system will drown in spam and abuse - necessarily broadcasts an association between home IP address and person => vulnerable to privacy problems and DOS attacks
rayiner 11y ago
I want the Web as in its heyday: circa 1999, give or take. When sites loaded blazing fast on my 256k DSL modem--faster than they do on my 50 Mbps connection today. No JS, no flash ads. Just text, images, and hyperlinks like TBL originally intended.
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  I hear what you're saying, but even inline images weren't originally part of HTML... http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0182.html http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0182.ht... If I'm being extra nitpicky, Flash and JS were both doing the rounds in '99, but that's beside the point, I understand you want a 'linked documents' web. In a hypothetical situation where that happened, would we have a different tech stack for zero-install client-server apps? I suspect people would still want to have them. What might this tech stack look like? What currently available software might be a good fit?
  - rayiner 11y ago
    Whats wrong with Java? Its bloated, but if OS X's energy meter isn't lying, less so than a Chrome-based "native" app.
    - ZenoArrow 11y ago
      You could use Java, but it doesn't solve the zero-install issue, updates aren't as seamless as web apps, both for the JVM and the apps itself. You could rework it into something that could work better, but the same could be said for web apps.
- m82labs 11y ago
  I think static content generators get us really close. Something like Jekyll creates easy to maintain, and optionally very low tech, sites of almost any size.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
anoplus 11y ago
To improve fundraising, I believe the expenditures should be transparent. And the funded elements of the organization should have progress bar, like they have in kickstarter.
- chillydawg 11y ago
  Given TBL is involved (who helped start the Open Data Institute in the UK) I would have thought they'd be pretty much 100% open by default. I guess not.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
beatpanda 11y ago
"Balance commercial profit with public benefit" isn't a thing that happens voluntarily and asking nicely for it is a joke. If we want pu lic benefit, we're going to have to make it ourselves, or take it. I'm going to ride a unicorn off into a sunset before people making money on the Internet (or elsewhere) are going to suddenly grow a conscience.
- kuschku 11y ago
  Well, the old web was profit-less and only public benefit oriented, and a lot of stuff still is – lots of people in the open source community provide services that are used by hundreds of millions of people and thousands of companies completely for free.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    I wouldn't say I want it back to the old web completely - there are lot of for-profit things that I use daily. But I feel that the profit mindset indeed poisoned the Internet. You could cut out 90% of people's attempts to make money on-line and the net (and the world) would be much better off.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    Well, the old web was profit-less and only public benefit oriented When? Banner ads appeared in '94 (in HotWired), and targeted ads in '96 (service by Affinicast).
aorth 11y ago
The web I want has websites using SHA2-based TLS certificates and TLS cipher suites that aren't vulnerable to padding oracle attacks (AES CBC).
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
anon5446372 11y ago
A responsive website would be a good start...
- bshimmin 11y ago
  This was my first thought too! Even on desktop, to be honest, this thing looks hideous. The grey text on almost-black background also completely fails the WCAG contrast ratio test. And, honestly, what on earth is this? https://webwewant.org/news/We_are_announcing_the_Small_Grants_Next_August_3_ https://webwewant.org/news/We_are_announcing_the_Small_Grant...
  - ytdht 11y ago
    Probably besides your point but: Instead of cropping that cat picture, they set a custom size in html that doesn't match the picture's ratio... if you want to see the cat's real proportions, right click on the picture and click view image.
Aoyagi 11y ago
A 4 MB front page is not the web I want.
- keithpeter 11y ago
  12 scripts and 2 tracking cookies (Noscript/Privacy Badger). Not so bad actually. Does the 4Mb include the download for that video?
- cozuya 11y ago
  How about an SHA-1 cert and a form that posts to HTTP? Is that the web you want?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
ExpiredLink 11y ago
The Web is a huge disappointment. It not only provides the technical infrastructure but also the data for unprecedented social control and mass surveillance. It's a delusion to think that anyone can influence the Web's advancement. It's already clear cut.
- signaler 11y ago
  It's why I wrote this: "A Magna Carta For The Web" http://blog.higg.so/2015/07/31/a-magna-carta-for-the-web/ http://blog.higg.so/2015/07/31/a-magna-carta-for-the-web/
- pastycrinkles 11y ago
  No kidding :/ . If anything, there should really be a movement to get people to migrate off of it more and more.
- dubwubz 11y ago
  Flagged.
bobajeff 11y ago
What's this site for exactly? Their about page is sort of vague.
revelation 11y ago
Let's start with disallowing loading 3rd party resources of any kind. That was always a terrible idea.
jimktrains2 11y ago
I've written a series of articles on some of the changes I'd like to see. http://jimkeener.com/posts/alt-login http://jimkeener.com/posts/alt-login http://jimkeener.com/posts/barcode-html-tag http://jimkeener.com/posts/barcode-html-tag http://jimkeener.com/posts/http http://jimkeener.com/posts/http I also created a got repo to help merge and coordinate ideas. Contributions are always welcome. https://github.com/jimktrains/http_ng https://github.com/jimktrains/http_ng
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- bshimmin 11y ago
  When I visit your blog, I get a pop-up anchored to the bottom of the page that says, "You might also like ... Create a Facebook profile". I think this is called "irony". I'm not going to delve into the bewildering array of topics you touch on in the above paragraphs, but I will just say that I used to run my own outbound mail server and, I'll be honest, I don't much miss the hassle of that.
  - signaler 11y ago
    Yeah I'm thinking of implementing subscribe2web: https://air.mozilla.org/subscribe2web/ https://air.mozilla.org/subscribe2web/ Thanks for the input. BTW - I applied for the grant on web we want and have yet to hear back from them. That blog comes out of my own pocket (domain renewals, hosting, marketing, etc). Apparently they're no longer doing grants, but I may dream
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
fiatjaf 11y ago
Blergh.
tomphoolery 11y ago
I want the Web that was originally intended: One source of data, the document, which allows you to be as expressive and semantic as you want. Clients read this data and implement it in their own way depending on how you're reading it, what kind of client you're using (screen-reader, etc.), whether you're on a mobile or a tablet, etc. No need for this responsive design bullshit that just wastes a ton of money and time for everyone involved. You may be asking yourself, how are we going to "design" this web? The answer is still CSS and JavaScript, with the added use of web components. Web components attach behavior and styling to your elements, and can even allow the browser to interpret new elements for you that inherit from other elements or components. This means that `<div class="the-actual-element">` goes away, and we are left with a tag name that actually tells you what kind of content there is inside, class names that specify "mixins" to load in styles or event bindings for multiple elements, and the content of the element can be styled in any way. All that aside, I still wonder if HTML is the "right" language for the job. Sure, it's in use everywhere, but why? Could we make something better and lighter for browsers to interpret, so that the same document could be parsed quickly by an API client of some kind? I really like the significant whitespace of Haml, and especially Slim's DSL which lets you just define new elements without prefixing them with '%'. Although Haml is pretty sweet, a language looking like Slim would clearly be less annoying to type out given most of your elements are totally custom. What I'd really like is a language which combines Slim for document layout and Markdown for copywriting: article#the-name-of-my-article title The name of my article preview This is a preview of the article content. It's parsed with _Markdown_. content This is the *actual* article content, parsed with **Markdown** as well. - [A link](http://news.ycombinator.com) time.localized 2000-01-01T00:00:00Z category general bullshit

68 points by signaler 11y ago

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, no.

popee 11y ago

The web I want is merge of SIP and rendering engines for HTML5/css. SIP is federated and decentralized but really similar to HTTP. The problem is in difference between URL and URI, because URIs are hosted/registered directly on user computers/agents, so for example it's not possible to take advantage of javascript/css. If someone could hacks this, transition would be really smooth. But we already have webRTC, why SIP? It's standardized, mature and more basic protocol. Ofc WebRTC is based on SIP, but with who knows how many additional layers.

pjc50 11y ago
SIP? SIP is terrible, it's an attempt at replicating the telco model of separate control plane vs talk channel of a traditional telephone company. URIs are hosted/registered directly on user's computer, so for example it's not possible to take advantage of javascript/css This doesn't follow either. If I host a webpage on my personal computer, I can host the js/css in exactly the same way.
- popee 11y ago
  > SIP? SIP is terrible, it's an attempt at replicating the telco model of separate control plane vs talk channel of a traditional telephone company. Good point and I agree, but it solves problem of direct communication between users (NAT traversal). It would be great if SIP had plain and simple GET method (without need for session/dialog). > This doesn't follow either. If I host a webpage on my personal computer, I can host the js/css in exactly the same way. How can I get your js/css from outside, if you are behind NAT? STUN? NAT traversal is already part of standard SIP infrastructure. Sorry on stubbornness, just trying to brainstorm a little.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    STUN is indeed used by SIP to traverse NAT, as part of a whole pile of techniques called ICE. However, this ultimately requires that you have a central server on which you can "advertise" your SIP presence and exchange SDP data. Yes, the session payload transport (RTP) is peer to peer, but the signalling still requires a central point. > How can I get your js/css from outside, if you are behind NAT? The same way you get the HTML, whatever approach is used. I don't think it's impossible to build a system involving distributing "advertisements" saying how to reach systems on a distributed hash table, then using either ports opened through UPNP on home routers or a "supernode" collection of STUN servers to communicate to home systems. There are three big downsides to this which are probably why we've not seen one yet: - no way to monetise it if it's truly distributed and open source => reduced incentive to build and maintain - no central party to fight spam and abuse => system will drown in spam and abuse - necessarily broadcasts an association between home IP address and person => vulnerable to privacy problems and DOS attacks

rayiner 11y ago

I want the Web as in its heyday: circa 1999, give or take. When sites loaded blazing fast on my 256k DSL modem--faster than they do on my 50 Mbps connection today. No JS, no flash ads. Just text, images, and hyperlinks like TBL originally intended.

ZenoArrow 11y ago
I hear what you're saying, but even inline images weren't originally part of HTML... http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0182.html http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0182.ht... If I'm being extra nitpicky, Flash and JS were both doing the rounds in '99, but that's beside the point, I understand you want a 'linked documents' web. In a hypothetical situation where that happened, would we have a different tech stack for zero-install client-server apps? I suspect people would still want to have them. What might this tech stack look like? What currently available software might be a good fit?
- rayiner 11y ago
  Whats wrong with Java? Its bloated, but if OS X's energy meter isn't lying, less so than a Chrome-based "native" app.
  - ZenoArrow 11y ago
    You could use Java, but it doesn't solve the zero-install issue, updates aren't as seamless as web apps, both for the JVM and the apps itself. You could rework it into something that could work better, but the same could be said for web apps.
m82labs 11y ago
I think static content generators get us really close. Something like Jekyll creates easy to maintain, and optionally very low tech, sites of almost any size.
- jacquesm 11y ago

anoplus 11y ago

To improve fundraising, I believe the expenditures should be transparent. And the funded elements of the organization should have progress bar, like they have in kickstarter.

chillydawg 11y ago
Given TBL is involved (who helped start the Open Data Institute in the UK) I would have thought they'd be pretty much 100% open by default. I guess not.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

beatpanda 11y ago

"Balance commercial profit with public benefit" isn't a thing that happens voluntarily and asking nicely for it is a joke. If we want pu lic benefit, we're going to have to make it ourselves, or take it. I'm going to ride a unicorn off into a sunset before people making money on the Internet (or elsewhere) are going to suddenly grow a conscience.

kuschku 11y ago
Well, the old web was profit-less and only public benefit oriented, and a lot of stuff still is – lots of people in the open source community provide services that are used by hundreds of millions of people and thousands of companies completely for free.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  I wouldn't say I want it back to the old web completely - there are lot of for-profit things that I use daily. But I feel that the profit mindset indeed poisoned the Internet. You could cut out 90% of people's attempts to make money on-line and the net (and the world) would be much better off.
- icebraining 11y ago
  Well, the old web was profit-less and only public benefit oriented When? Banner ads appeared in '94 (in HotWired), and targeted ads in '96 (service by Affinicast).

aorth 11y ago

The web I want has websites using SHA2-based TLS certificates and TLS cipher suites that aren't vulnerable to padding oracle attacks (AES CBC).

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

anon5446372 11y ago

A responsive website would be a good start...

bshimmin 11y ago
This was my first thought too! Even on desktop, to be honest, this thing looks hideous. The grey text on almost-black background also completely fails the WCAG contrast ratio test. And, honestly, what on earth is this? https://webwewant.org/news/We_are_announcing_the_Small_Grants_Next_August_3_ https://webwewant.org/news/We_are_announcing_the_Small_Grant...
- ytdht 11y ago
  Probably besides your point but: Instead of cropping that cat picture, they set a custom size in html that doesn't match the picture's ratio... if you want to see the cat's real proportions, right click on the picture and click view image.

Aoyagi 11y ago

A 4 MB front page is not the web I want.

keithpeter 11y ago
12 scripts and 2 tracking cookies (Noscript/Privacy Badger). Not so bad actually. Does the 4Mb include the download for that video?
cozuya 11y ago
How about an SHA-1 cert and a form that posts to HTTP? Is that the web you want?

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

ExpiredLink 11y ago

The Web is a huge disappointment. It not only provides the technical infrastructure but also the data for unprecedented social control and mass surveillance. It's a delusion to think that anyone can influence the Web's advancement. It's already clear cut.

signaler 11y ago
It's why I wrote this: "A Magna Carta For The Web" http://blog.higg.so/2015/07/31/a-magna-carta-for-the-web/ http://blog.higg.so/2015/07/31/a-magna-carta-for-the-web/
pastycrinkles 11y ago
No kidding :/ . If anything, there should really be a movement to get people to migrate off of it more and more.
dubwubz 11y ago
Flagged.

bobajeff 11y ago

What's this site for exactly? Their about page is sort of vague.

revelation 11y ago

Let's start with disallowing loading 3rd party resources of any kind. That was always a terrible idea.

jimktrains2 11y ago

I've written a series of articles on some of the changes I'd like to see. http://jimkeener.com/posts/alt-login http://jimkeener.com/posts/alt-login http://jimkeener.com/posts/barcode-html-tag http://jimkeener.com/posts/barcode-html-tag http://jimkeener.com/posts/http http://jimkeener.com/posts/http I also created a got repo to help merge and coordinate ideas. Contributions are always welcome. https://github.com/jimktrains/http_ng https://github.com/jimktrains/http_ng

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

bshimmin 11y ago
When I visit your blog, I get a pop-up anchored to the bottom of the page that says, "You might also like ... Create a Facebook profile". I think this is called "irony". I'm not going to delve into the bewildering array of topics you touch on in the above paragraphs, but I will just say that I used to run my own outbound mail server and, I'll be honest, I don't much miss the hassle of that.
- signaler 11y ago
  Yeah I'm thinking of implementing subscribe2web: https://air.mozilla.org/subscribe2web/ https://air.mozilla.org/subscribe2web/ Thanks for the input. BTW - I applied for the grant on web we want and have yet to hear back from them. That blog comes out of my own pocket (domain renewals, hosting, marketing, etc). Apparently they're no longer doing grants, but I may dream

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

fiatjaf 11y ago

Blergh.

tomphoolery 11y ago

I want the Web that was originally intended: One source of data, the document, which allows you to be as expressive and semantic as you want. Clients read this data and implement it in their own way depending on how you're reading it, what kind of client you're using (screen-reader, etc.), whether you're on a mobile or a tablet, etc. No need for this responsive design bullshit that just wastes a ton of money and time for everyone involved. You may be asking yourself, how are we going to "design" this web? The answer is still CSS and JavaScript, with the added use of web components. Web components attach behavior and styling to your elements, and can even allow the browser to interpret new elements for you that inherit from other elements or components. This means that `<div class="the-actual-element">` goes away, and we are left with a tag name that actually tells you what kind of content there is inside, class names that specify "mixins" to load in styles or event bindings for multiple elements, and the content of the element can be styled in any way. All that aside, I still wonder if HTML is the "right" language for the job. Sure, it's in use everywhere, but why? Could we make something better and lighter for browsers to interpret, so that the same document could be parsed quickly by an API client of some kind? I really like the significant whitespace of Haml, and especially Slim's DSL which lets you just define new elements without prefixing them with '%'. Although Haml is pretty sweet, a language looking like Slim would clearly be less annoying to type out given most of your elements are totally custom. What I'd really like is a language which combines Slim for document layout and Markdown for copywriting: article#the-name-of-my-article title The name of my article preview This is a preview of the article content. It's parsed with _Markdown_. content This is the *actual* article content, parsed with **Markdown** as well. - [A link](http://news.ycombinator.com) time.localized 2000-01-01T00:00:00Z category general bullshit