4 ms·

I came across this a few days ago, and posted because some people in the other thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9982730 https://news.ycombinator.com

I came across this a few days ago, and posted because some people in the other thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9982730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9982730) were getting uncomfortable about DjangoGirls.

Nadya 11y ago
Which seemed to mostly be Joe - and I support Joe's criticism. It has to do with gender norms, society constructed and "helpful to market" or not. Where do tomboys fit into this? Where do transgender women fit into this [3]? I'd be put off from attending due to all the emphasis on "girly things" and the fact that I don't know if I belong or not (without doing some more research at least). On the blog here [0] there is a mention for "Yay Python", seemingly headed by some Django Girls. It caught my interest so I went to the page [1]. Glitter, art, and sparkles. Beautiful (used 5 times on the one page) and imaginative. A child-like connect-the-dots with flowers and pink and "girly typography". I'm sure it's, on a technical level, a great book. But it comes off as "this is girly, made by girls, and it's meant for girls [2]. In their attempt to make "squirrels feel more welcome" they've marginalized even more squirrels further by showing that these "tomsquirrels" don't even belong with the squirrels! >The book will build on the Django Girls tradition, with "a good dose of emoji and funny little quirks". So girls have to use a lot of emoji and be "quirky" (cutesy?)? I'm feeling less and less like I belong... [0] https://lwn.net/Articles/651833/ https://lwn.net/Articles/651833/ [1] http://yaypython.com/ http://yaypython.com/ [2] Usable by anyone is a cop out. Girls can play with Hot Wheelz and action figures too, but they aren't the target demographic. The book is obviously marketed towards girls even if it is usable by anyone. [3] http://organize.djangogirls.org/attendees/index.html http://organize.djangogirls.org/attendees/index.html | I did more research, though I'm still confused if I would be encouraged to be given priority or not? Not renumbering to show that I checked after writing everything else out.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  "I did more research, though I'm still confused if I would be encouraged to be given priority or not? Not renumbering to show that I checked after writing everything else out." A quick google suggests that DjangoGirls is explicitly open to all women and also non-binary individuals, and at least one major player is connected with Trans*Code. "Monospace white-on-black command-line aesthetic is a stylistic choice. It’s one that is relatively unmarked in our community. Glittery pastels is a different aesthetic. They are both perfectly valid ways to invite someone to be a programmer. And they will appeal to different audiences." And this comment of yours: "I'm sure it's, on a technical level, a great book. But it comes off as "this is girly, made by girls, and it's meant for girls" is sort of the entire point of the original blog. So what if it's laid out in a manner that's coded as "feminine" by this society? What's wrong with that?
  - Nadya 11y ago
    As for your quote - monospace white-on-black command-line is not a gendered aesthetic (although it's a stereotype aesthetic? The "typical computer geek" from TV shows I guess?). Glittery pastels are a gendered aesthetic. >And they will appeal to different audiences." So would having a sports bar and female strippers. I'm not denying that glittery pastels are going to attract a more feminine girly-girl audience. I'm arguing that not all girls are girly-girl types and many are tomboys and would feel completely out of place in a place that tries to yell "Disney Princesses" at the top of its lungs. > So what if it's laid out in a manner that's coded as "feminine" by this society? What's wrong with that? Not all girls are feminine and will feel out of place and unwelcomed in such an environment. We can start there. Which is the point I feel Joe was trying to get across and is definitely the point I was trying to get across. >A quick google suggests that DjangoGirls is explicitly open to all women and also non-binary individuals, and at least one major player is connected with TransCode.* This does not answer my question about "priority to female individuals". I had already answered myself about being welcomed or not. But when priority is given to females, do transexuals count as female in this regard? Because in many places we don't - especially pre-op.
- amyjess 11y ago
  Hey, I'm a trans girl. I'm also fairly feminine. I love coding, I especially love Python, and I also love stuff with "glitter, art, and sparkles". That should never be a contradiction. I'm thoroughly sick and tired of all the femme-shaming that's endemic in feminist and LGBT communities. Julia Serrano is right: femmephobia is a serious problem. Honestly, as a mostly platform-level programmer who never really got into webdev, something like the Django Girls stuff might actually get me to learn the webby side of things.
  - Nadya 11y ago
    I have nothing against femininity. There are some tomboys who essentially tie their very identity to "hates girly things" and they are still girls and should still feel included in a place like this. Django Girls place too much emphasis on the femininity of everything, as if someone is questioning if they are girly enough because they're "nerds doing tech things". It's bizarre to me and I'd feel uncomfortable. I've also had some time to speak to a few coworkers and, with no surprise to me, the more tomboyish ones would feel weird or unwelcome because femininity is too much of a focus. A tech conference should not be the time or place to play on gender norms. If you are not interested in technology for technologies' sake then you shouldn't be there! Go do something you're interested in. If an all-tech place is too boring for you to attend that speaks more about you than tech. I'd also like to clarify it's perfectly fine to love glitter, art, sparkles, and Python. If your goal isn't to be inclusive, it's fine to host an event loving all 4 at once! But if you want to be inclusive, you should focus more on the Python and less on the glitter, art, and sparkles.

Nadya 11y ago

Which seemed to mostly be Joe - and I support Joe's criticism. It has to do with gender norms, society constructed and "helpful to market" or not. Where do tomboys fit into this? Where do transgender women fit into this [3]? I'd be put off from attending due to all the emphasis on "girly things" and the fact that I don't know if I belong or not (without doing some more research at least). On the blog here [0] there is a mention for "Yay Python", seemingly headed by some Django Girls. It caught my interest so I went to the page [1]. Glitter, art, and sparkles. Beautiful (used 5 times on the one page) and imaginative. A child-like connect-the-dots with flowers and pink and "girly typography". I'm sure it's, on a technical level, a great book. But it comes off as "this is girly, made by girls, and it's meant for girls [2]. In their attempt to make "squirrels feel more welcome" they've marginalized even more squirrels further by showing that these "tomsquirrels" don't even belong with the squirrels! >The book will build on the Django Girls tradition, with "a good dose of emoji and funny little quirks". So girls have to use a lot of emoji and be "quirky" (cutesy?)? I'm feeling less and less like I belong... [0] https://lwn.net/Articles/651833/ https://lwn.net/Articles/651833/ [1] http://yaypython.com/ http://yaypython.com/ [2] Usable by anyone is a cop out. Girls can play with Hot Wheelz and action figures too, but they aren't the target demographic. The book is obviously marketed towards girls even if it is usable by anyone. [3] http://organize.djangogirls.org/attendees/index.html http://organize.djangogirls.org/attendees/index.html | I did more research, though I'm still confused if I would be encouraged to be given priority or not? Not renumbering to show that I checked after writing everything else out.

GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
"I did more research, though I'm still confused if I would be encouraged to be given priority or not? Not renumbering to show that I checked after writing everything else out." A quick google suggests that DjangoGirls is explicitly open to all women and also non-binary individuals, and at least one major player is connected with Trans*Code. "Monospace white-on-black command-line aesthetic is a stylistic choice. It’s one that is relatively unmarked in our community. Glittery pastels is a different aesthetic. They are both perfectly valid ways to invite someone to be a programmer. And they will appeal to different audiences." And this comment of yours: "I'm sure it's, on a technical level, a great book. But it comes off as "this is girly, made by girls, and it's meant for girls" is sort of the entire point of the original blog. So what if it's laid out in a manner that's coded as "feminine" by this society? What's wrong with that?
- Nadya 11y ago
  As for your quote - monospace white-on-black command-line is not a gendered aesthetic (although it's a stereotype aesthetic? The "typical computer geek" from TV shows I guess?). Glittery pastels are a gendered aesthetic. >And they will appeal to different audiences." So would having a sports bar and female strippers. I'm not denying that glittery pastels are going to attract a more feminine girly-girl audience. I'm arguing that not all girls are girly-girl types and many are tomboys and would feel completely out of place in a place that tries to yell "Disney Princesses" at the top of its lungs. > So what if it's laid out in a manner that's coded as "feminine" by this society? What's wrong with that? Not all girls are feminine and will feel out of place and unwelcomed in such an environment. We can start there. Which is the point I feel Joe was trying to get across and is definitely the point I was trying to get across. >A quick google suggests that DjangoGirls is explicitly open to all women and also non-binary individuals, and at least one major player is connected with TransCode.* This does not answer my question about "priority to female individuals". I had already answered myself about being welcomed or not. But when priority is given to females, do transexuals count as female in this regard? Because in many places we don't - especially pre-op.
amyjess 11y ago
Hey, I'm a trans girl. I'm also fairly feminine. I love coding, I especially love Python, and I also love stuff with "glitter, art, and sparkles". That should never be a contradiction. I'm thoroughly sick and tired of all the femme-shaming that's endemic in feminist and LGBT communities. Julia Serrano is right: femmephobia is a serious problem. Honestly, as a mostly platform-level programmer who never really got into webdev, something like the Django Girls stuff might actually get me to learn the webby side of things.
- Nadya 11y ago
  I have nothing against femininity. There are some tomboys who essentially tie their very identity to "hates girly things" and they are still girls and should still feel included in a place like this. Django Girls place too much emphasis on the femininity of everything, as if someone is questioning if they are girly enough because they're "nerds doing tech things". It's bizarre to me and I'd feel uncomfortable. I've also had some time to speak to a few coworkers and, with no surprise to me, the more tomboyish ones would feel weird or unwelcome because femininity is too much of a focus. A tech conference should not be the time or place to play on gender norms. If you are not interested in technology for technologies' sake then you shouldn't be there! Go do something you're interested in. If an all-tech place is too boring for you to attend that speaks more about you than tech. I'd also like to clarify it's perfectly fine to love glitter, art, sparkles, and Python. If your goal isn't to be inclusive, it's fine to host an event loving all 4 at once! But if you want to be inclusive, you should focus more on the Python and less on the glitter, art, and sparkles.