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not that he was likely to go without making a ton of derogatory remarks about the livav split. and if he never liked the leadership role as he claims, he was g

by av500 11y ago

not that he was likely to go without making a ton of derogatory remarks about the livav split. and if he never liked the leadership role as he claims, he was given ample opportunities to get rid of it.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Intermernet 11y ago
He states: "I had hoped for a long time that the fork situation would resolve and both sides somehow merging back into one team. All the Libav developers joining FFmpeg again. But even now as the last distributions are preparing to remove Libav, still theres no hint of that happening. Maybe even the opposite." and "Do friendly merges, and if you like do hostile merges. Its all up to you now!" That isn't "a ton of derogatory remarks". libav is working to the same goal as ffmpeg. The split is due to idealism and politics, not due to the goal of the project. I'm not going to pick a side in this, as interpersonal relationships are impossible to accurately gauge from an external viewpoint. I'm not sure if you have a personal stake in this argument, and I apologize, and sympathize if you do. Best of luck in the future Mr Niedermayer. Thanks for all the work over the years.
- av500 11y ago
  "...and its very difficult to be the leader when one is on one side of this split and the other tries everything to push me out..." that the gist of it, it's always the other side wanting him harm. he never ever acknowleged any wrongdoing on his side.
  - Intermernet 11y ago
    That also is not a derogatory remark. Protective and one-sided, but not derogatory. You can't claim that everyone that disagrees with you is being "derogatory". EDIT: Example: "I disagree with you" = not derogatory "You're an idiot" = derogatory
    - lu_zero_ 11y ago
      http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.ffmpeg.devel/130994 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.ffmpeg.devel/13099... Enough said.
      - sirbribri 11y ago
        I'm pretty sure I can dig up comments like this from both sides from 4 years ago, especially from IRC logs.
        av500 11y ago
        please find a mailing list post where Michael is being attacked like that.
        lu_zero_ 11y ago
        You are welcome to do. Libav has a code of conduct and it is enforced so maybe you'd have much an harder time finding such gems. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.ffmpeg.devel/179271 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.ffmpeg.devel/17927... (Keep in mind at least one of the Libav supported got questioned on his dayjob regarding "thievery" because of those lovely examples and the legends the fans kept propagating)
      - __david__ 11y ago
        > If noone has time ill fix the memleak and commit and let the libav cleanup monkeys clean the rest up for me. Is that the line you're objecting to? That sounds kind of jokey and affectionate to me.
        TillE 11y ago
        Seriously, people on HN are enraptured when Linus Torvalds writes things that are about eight billion times more personally hostile than that.
      - cthalupa 11y ago
        If >If noone has time ill fix the memleak and commit and let the libav cleanup monkeys clean the rest up for me. Is the kind of inflammatory comment you are so up in arms over, I think you must have lived a very sheltered life. Especially considering this comment looks to have come shortly after the hostile split.
  - makomk 11y ago
    The libav side have consistently refused to merge code from the ffmpeg side of the split, including security fixes, have written their own incompatible versions of any APIs the ffmpeg developers come up with, and been generally hostile, and he's the one that's had to deal with the mess for the past several years.
    - lu_zero_ 11y ago
      "Refused" ? In Libav any patch has to go through review, anything that had been put in review had been managed as any other patches by any other sources. Libav is about rules and not leaders.
      - sirbribri 11y ago
        After seeing a few of the comments from libav developers here and on IRC, you can see the bitterness is still alive. :-(
        bonzini 11y ago
        And both of our comments in reply to the same parent were downvoted 10 seconds after posting. Is this reddit with a weird stylesheet?
        av500 11y ago
        if everything that somebody from the libav side says here is automatically labelled bitterness and downvoted, maybe you can understand why some are indeed bitter.
        iopq 11y ago
        I've never heard of this split up until today, why are you still salty? You won, you can take over the world now.
      - bonzini 11y ago
        Your users don't care about rules, and rules need manpower. If your rules prevent you from keeping your software secure, you don't have enough manpower to do what is in your user's best interests.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    You're doing a pretty good job of illustrating why things went off the rails.
    - av500 11y ago
      http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.ffmpeg.devel/130994 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.ffmpeg.devel/13099... posts like this one is why it went off the rails a long time ago. there is also the one where he suggested a libav dev should commit suicide and later labeled it as "Austrian humour"
      - cjslep 11y ago
        Honest series of questions from an outsider: Your team won, Michael stepped down. Of his own volition. What positive outcome could possibly be had by still spouting bitterness and negativity against him? Is it because he did not genuinely say "sorry" at some point? After reading [0] and [1], is it not possible to admit that maybe both sides have some genuine "sorries" to pass around? Now seems like the perfect opportunity to make a positive change for developers and users instead of venting frustrations that are only going to further polarize the current division. (I'm not "automatically" labelling your posts as bitter. Almost all of yours in these comments objectively contain negative language, typically directed at Michael.) [0] http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2011-January/106403.html http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2011-January/106403... [1] http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2011-January/106489.html http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2011-January/106489... Edit, to add: I guess I echo this sentiment (from article's email chain): http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2015-July/176493.html http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2015-July/176493.ht...
        lu_zero_ 11y ago
        https://blogs.gentoo.org/lu_zero/2015/02/20/demotivation-fud-and-why-i-still-contribute-to-libav/ https://blogs.gentoo.org/lu_zero/2015/02/20/demotivation-fud... For the another batch of links and some more background.
  - sirbribri 11y ago
    I don't know if he's ever explicitly mentioned his "wrongdoings," but I do feel that he has changed for the better since the libav split. This is in terms of how he's interacted with people on the ffmpeg-devel mailing list, he's shown up consistently on IRC, and getting patches accepted aren't a royal pain as it was in the past. I don't know how real contributors/maintainers feel, but as a user and sometimes patch-submitter, I feel like things have gotten better.

by av500 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

Intermernet 11y ago

He states: "I had hoped for a long time that the fork situation would resolve and both sides somehow merging back into one team. All the Libav developers joining FFmpeg again. But even now as the last distributions are preparing to remove Libav, still theres no hint of that happening. Maybe even the opposite." and "Do friendly merges, and if you like do hostile merges. Its all up to you now!" That isn't "a ton of derogatory remarks". libav is working to the same goal as ffmpeg. The split is due to idealism and politics, not due to the goal of the project. I'm not going to pick a side in this, as interpersonal relationships are impossible to accurately gauge from an external viewpoint. I'm not sure if you have a personal stake in this argument, and I apologize, and sympathize if you do. Best of luck in the future Mr Niedermayer. Thanks for all the work over the years.

av500 11y ago
"...and its very difficult to be the leader when one is on one side of this split and the other tries everything to push me out..." that the gist of it, it's always the other side wanting him harm. he never ever acknowleged any wrongdoing on his side.
- Intermernet 11y ago
  That also is not a derogatory remark. Protective and one-sided, but not derogatory. You can't claim that everyone that disagrees with you is being "derogatory". EDIT: Example: "I disagree with you" = not derogatory "You're an idiot" = derogatory
  - lu_zero_ 11y ago
    http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.ffmpeg.devel/130994 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.ffmpeg.devel/13099... Enough said.
    - sirbribri 11y ago
      I'm pretty sure I can dig up comments like this from both sides from 4 years ago, especially from IRC logs.
      - av500 11y ago
        please find a mailing list post where Michael is being attacked like that.
      - lu_zero_ 11y ago
        You are welcome to do. Libav has a code of conduct and it is enforced so maybe you'd have much an harder time finding such gems. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.ffmpeg.devel/179271 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.ffmpeg.devel/17927... (Keep in mind at least one of the Libav supported got questioned on his dayjob regarding "thievery" because of those lovely examples and the legends the fans kept propagating)
    - __david__ 11y ago
      > If noone has time ill fix the memleak and commit and let the libav cleanup monkeys clean the rest up for me. Is that the line you're objecting to? That sounds kind of jokey and affectionate to me.
      - TillE 11y ago
        Seriously, people on HN are enraptured when Linus Torvalds writes things that are about eight billion times more personally hostile than that.
    - cthalupa 11y ago
      If >If noone has time ill fix the memleak and commit and let the libav cleanup monkeys clean the rest up for me. Is the kind of inflammatory comment you are so up in arms over, I think you must have lived a very sheltered life. Especially considering this comment looks to have come shortly after the hostile split.
- makomk 11y ago
  The libav side have consistently refused to merge code from the ffmpeg side of the split, including security fixes, have written their own incompatible versions of any APIs the ffmpeg developers come up with, and been generally hostile, and he's the one that's had to deal with the mess for the past several years.
  - lu_zero_ 11y ago
    "Refused" ? In Libav any patch has to go through review, anything that had been put in review had been managed as any other patches by any other sources. Libav is about rules and not leaders.
    - sirbribri 11y ago
      After seeing a few of the comments from libav developers here and on IRC, you can see the bitterness is still alive. :-(
      - bonzini 11y ago
        And both of our comments in reply to the same parent were downvoted 10 seconds after posting. Is this reddit with a weird stylesheet?
      - av500 11y ago
        if everything that somebody from the libav side says here is automatically labelled bitterness and downvoted, maybe you can understand why some are indeed bitter.
        iopq 11y ago
        I've never heard of this split up until today, why are you still salty? You won, you can take over the world now.
    - bonzini 11y ago
      Your users don't care about rules, and rules need manpower. If your rules prevent you from keeping your software secure, you don't have enough manpower to do what is in your user's best interests.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  You're doing a pretty good job of illustrating why things went off the rails.
  - av500 11y ago
    http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.ffmpeg.devel/130994 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.ffmpeg.devel/13099... posts like this one is why it went off the rails a long time ago. there is also the one where he suggested a libav dev should commit suicide and later labeled it as "Austrian humour"
    - cjslep 11y ago
      Honest series of questions from an outsider: Your team won, Michael stepped down. Of his own volition. What positive outcome could possibly be had by still spouting bitterness and negativity against him? Is it because he did not genuinely say "sorry" at some point? After reading [0] and [1], is it not possible to admit that maybe both sides have some genuine "sorries" to pass around? Now seems like the perfect opportunity to make a positive change for developers and users instead of venting frustrations that are only going to further polarize the current division. (I'm not "automatically" labelling your posts as bitter. Almost all of yours in these comments objectively contain negative language, typically directed at Michael.) [0] http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2011-January/106403.html http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2011-January/106403... [1] http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2011-January/106489.html http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2011-January/106489... Edit, to add: I guess I echo this sentiment (from article's email chain): http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2015-July/176493.html http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2015-July/176493.ht...
      - lu_zero_ 11y ago
        https://blogs.gentoo.org/lu_zero/2015/02/20/demotivation-fud-and-why-i-still-contribute-to-libav/ https://blogs.gentoo.org/lu_zero/2015/02/20/demotivation-fud... For the another batch of links and some more background.
- sirbribri 11y ago
  I don't know if he's ever explicitly mentioned his "wrongdoings," but I do feel that he has changed for the better since the libav split. This is in terms of how he's interacted with people on the ffmpeg-devel mailing list, he's shown up consistently on IRC, and getting patches accepted aren't a royal pain as it was in the past. I don't know how real contributors/maintainers feel, but as a user and sometimes patch-submitter, I feel like things have gotten better.