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About WebSQL Firefox already had (and still has) Sqlite dependency (it is uses for bookmarks, history, ...) it is not the issue. The problem is that the Web SQL

by sonnyp 11y ago

About WebSQL Firefox already had (and still has) Sqlite dependency (it is uses for bookmarks, history, ...) it is not the issue. The problem is that the Web SQL standard states "User agents must implement the SQL dialect supported by Sqlite 3.6.19." [0] which made agents rely on a outdated dependency and non standard (sqlite is not SQL ansible compatible) SQL. A nightmare for Web standards. They made the right (and hard) choice. NaCl isn't portable (Mozilla is working on Web Assembly) Dart excerpt taken from Dart FAQ; question: "Will the Dart VM get into Chrome?" response: "No. Dart is designed to compile to JavaScript to run across the modern web, and the dart2js compiler is a top priority for the team." [1] [0] http://www.w3.org/TR/webdatabase/#web-sql http://www.w3.org/TR/webdatabase/#web-sql [1] https://www.dartlang.org/support/faq.html#q-will-the-dart-vm-get-into-chrome https://www.dartlang.org/support/faq.html#q-will-the-dart-vm...

michaelwww 11y ago
Google has the Dart VM running in Chrome and it's called Dartium. If Mozilla had not been so vigorously negative towards Dart the story of Dart and Blink may have turned out differently.
- BrendanEich 11y ago
  No, Google Chrome people rebelled against the overhead of a cross-language-engine garbage cycle collector. Are you aware of the technical details? Before this, before Blink forked WebKit, Apple rejected naive DartVM pre-integration changes for the same reason: https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2011-December/018811.html https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2011-December/... Whining for the poor Google-Goliath, blaming little Mozilla-David, is rich. No comment on the Pocket deal or other recent Mozilla changes. On this tangent about Dart, I'm happy that Chrome people prevailed.
  - tkubacki 11y ago
    >On this tangent about Dart, I'm happy that Chrome people prevailed I'm not. We are sentenced for another 20+ yrs for lang with broken 'this' pointer
    - phillipwills 11y ago
      Just because you don't understand the JavaScript this, doesn't mean it's broken. It behaves exactly the same way every time you use it... It refers to the object that called the function (unless, of course you or someone else overrode it).
      - tkubacki 11y ago
        just because I say 'this' is broken, it doesn't mean I don't understand how it works. 'this' in JS is misleading and confusing - IMHO it's broken design
    - robin_reala 11y ago
      You might be interested in ES6’s arrow functions, which change the behaviour of this to something you might approve of (you didn’t specify how you thought it was broken): http://tc39wiki.calculist.org/es6/arrow-functions/ http://tc39wiki.calculist.org/es6/arrow-functions/
      - tkubacki 11y ago
        yea there are many different tactics to tackle this issue - still default behaviour is confusing at best - bad design at worst.
    - BrendanEich 11y ago
      Lots of languages, notably including Dart, compile to JS now. WebAssembly will support even more with high efficiency in the next year or two -- not in "20+ yrs". Enough with pulling victim-faces! :-P.
  - michaelwww 11y ago
    The Dart team is not a large team and not an arrogant team. Led by Lars Bak, they thought to try and make something that ran faster than JavaScript by doing away with 'monkey patching.' Lars and Kasper Lund took all their experience working with V8 to make something that avoided the bottlenecks. Gilad Bracha designed a good working language and it works without many "gotchas" along the way. It's a pleasure to use. The Google Chrome team was not enthusiastic about it even before Blink, as you correctly state, but what I was trying to say is that if the industry hadn't reacted so negatively to Dart because of some percieved ulterior motive by Google, the Chrome team may have been persuaded to put some more thought into it and make it happen. Lars Bak, Kaser Lund, Gilad Bracha and the rest of the team did something cool and don't get any props for it because they work for Google. Such is life. I recall Mozilla disliked it the most, which I assume was driven by you, the creator of JavaScript. Dart was never going to replace JavaScript you know, because even then they were saying that anything that can be written in JavaScript, will be written in JavaScript. JavaScript is unstoppable, but people should look at Dart for what it is, another tool in the toolkit.
    - BrendanEich 11y ago
      tl;dr -- "Dart is good". A fine view, I agree on parts. Your words do nothing to address the very real technical problems that kept DartVM out of Chrome. Stop personalizing everything and study the link I cited.
      - oso2k 11y ago
        It's hard not to personalize things like what Oliver Hunt said in [0], "The issue here isn't "can we make multiple vms live in webkit" it's "can we expose multiple languages to the web", to the former i say obviously as we already do, to the latter I say that we don't want to." The general tone Oliver had was akin to saying only little-endian machines should be supported on the Web. Not because of some technically proven deficiency in the idea of allowing big-endian machines, but because "we don't want to." I can only imagine if such logic had been applied to other parts of the Web. Technical problems always have a solution. [0] https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2011-December/018806.html https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2011-December/...
BrendanEich 11y ago
Just wanted to note that all of Apple, Google, Microsoft and Mozilla are working on WebAssembly, see https://github.com/WebAssembly/design https://github.com/WebAssembly/design.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

by sonnyp 11y ago

michaelwww 11y ago

Google has the Dart VM running in Chrome and it's called Dartium. If Mozilla had not been so vigorously negative towards Dart the story of Dart and Blink may have turned out differently.

BrendanEich 11y ago
No, Google Chrome people rebelled against the overhead of a cross-language-engine garbage cycle collector. Are you aware of the technical details? Before this, before Blink forked WebKit, Apple rejected naive DartVM pre-integration changes for the same reason: https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2011-December/018811.html https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2011-December/... Whining for the poor Google-Goliath, blaming little Mozilla-David, is rich. No comment on the Pocket deal or other recent Mozilla changes. On this tangent about Dart, I'm happy that Chrome people prevailed.
- tkubacki 11y ago
  >On this tangent about Dart, I'm happy that Chrome people prevailed I'm not. We are sentenced for another 20+ yrs for lang with broken 'this' pointer
  - phillipwills 11y ago
    Just because you don't understand the JavaScript this, doesn't mean it's broken. It behaves exactly the same way every time you use it... It refers to the object that called the function (unless, of course you or someone else overrode it).
    - tkubacki 11y ago
      just because I say 'this' is broken, it doesn't mean I don't understand how it works. 'this' in JS is misleading and confusing - IMHO it's broken design
  - robin_reala 11y ago
    You might be interested in ES6’s arrow functions, which change the behaviour of this to something you might approve of (you didn’t specify how you thought it was broken): http://tc39wiki.calculist.org/es6/arrow-functions/ http://tc39wiki.calculist.org/es6/arrow-functions/
    - tkubacki 11y ago
      yea there are many different tactics to tackle this issue - still default behaviour is confusing at best - bad design at worst.
  - BrendanEich 11y ago
    Lots of languages, notably including Dart, compile to JS now. WebAssembly will support even more with high efficiency in the next year or two -- not in "20+ yrs". Enough with pulling victim-faces! :-P.
- michaelwww 11y ago
  The Dart team is not a large team and not an arrogant team. Led by Lars Bak, they thought to try and make something that ran faster than JavaScript by doing away with 'monkey patching.' Lars and Kasper Lund took all their experience working with V8 to make something that avoided the bottlenecks. Gilad Bracha designed a good working language and it works without many "gotchas" along the way. It's a pleasure to use. The Google Chrome team was not enthusiastic about it even before Blink, as you correctly state, but what I was trying to say is that if the industry hadn't reacted so negatively to Dart because of some percieved ulterior motive by Google, the Chrome team may have been persuaded to put some more thought into it and make it happen. Lars Bak, Kaser Lund, Gilad Bracha and the rest of the team did something cool and don't get any props for it because they work for Google. Such is life. I recall Mozilla disliked it the most, which I assume was driven by you, the creator of JavaScript. Dart was never going to replace JavaScript you know, because even then they were saying that anything that can be written in JavaScript, will be written in JavaScript. JavaScript is unstoppable, but people should look at Dart for what it is, another tool in the toolkit.
  - BrendanEich 11y ago
    tl;dr -- "Dart is good". A fine view, I agree on parts. Your words do nothing to address the very real technical problems that kept DartVM out of Chrome. Stop personalizing everything and study the link I cited.
    - oso2k 11y ago
      It's hard not to personalize things like what Oliver Hunt said in [0], "The issue here isn't "can we make multiple vms live in webkit" it's "can we expose multiple languages to the web", to the former i say obviously as we already do, to the latter I say that we don't want to." The general tone Oliver had was akin to saying only little-endian machines should be supported on the Web. Not because of some technically proven deficiency in the idea of allowing big-endian machines, but because "we don't want to." I can only imagine if such logic had been applied to other parts of the Web. Technical problems always have a solution. [0] https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2011-December/018806.html https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2011-December/...

BrendanEich 11y ago

Just wanted to note that all of Apple, Google, Microsoft and Mozilla are working on WebAssembly, see https://github.com/WebAssembly/design https://github.com/WebAssembly/design.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]