8 ms·

Since the global passive adversary is now a reality (NSA) it seems like Tor is broken by design.

by moe 11y ago

tokenizerrr 11y ago
Not everyone is hiding from the NSA.
- andreyf 11y ago
  So ToR is like a shitty free VPN? Who can one be hiding from that a cheap VPN to a jurisdiction of your choice won't solve much better?
  - tokenizerrr 11y ago
    No, it's not. It's also not written ToR. I recommend you venture over to their website and start reading the documentation.
    - andreyf 11y ago
      Thanks for the correction, I'm not sure why I decided to upper case the R :) To clarify what I think you meant to refer me to, the Tor client actually chooses the three nodes in the path of a circuit, doesn't use two nodes on the same subnet, nor ones the network classifies as belonging to the same "family" (although I'm having trouble determining what this means in practice). Given that there is a hard limit of three nodes in a route, I'm still have trouble thinking of an adversary that Tor protects you against that a VPN to a jurisdiction of your choosing doesn't, and a VPN is significantly faster...
fossuser 11y ago
It's extremely difficult to do (even for the NSA as the leaks mostly showed). Tor is by far the best option that exists today.
andreyf 11y ago
The NSA isn't really global, though. For example, if enough ToR traffic were routed via Asia or South America, I imagine they would not be able to perform much traffic analysis on it.
- moe 11y ago
  The NSA is very much global and according to the Snowden leaks tapped into a large number of major internet exchanges and sea cables, including the largest internet exchange of the world (Germany, DECIX[1]) as well as the largest exchange in Asia (Hong Kong, HKIX[3]) and South America (Brazil, BRIX[4]) respectively. From what we know the NSA has global coverage with google-style indexing[1] since at least 2012, possibly earlier. [1] https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/08/25/icreach-nsa-cia-secret-google-crisscross-proton/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/08/25/icreach-nsa-ci... [2] http://www.ip-watch.org/2015/04/24/largest-internet-exchange-point-announces-complaint-against-snooping/ http://www.ip-watch.org/2015/04/24/largest-internet-exchange... [3] http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1269773/hong-kongs-internet-exchange-offers-snoopers-rich-pickings http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1269773/hong-kong... [4] http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-the-n-s-a-wants-in-brazil http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-the-n-s-a-wants... [5] http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret-world-communications-nsa http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret... [6] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x6aYnGmbQKzZGLUkWC4mX5eSRlDWpVKls_DjI_gV69A/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CMeo8ZkG#gid=0 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x6aYnGmbQKzZGLUkWC4m...
  - andreyf 11y ago
    Thanks for finding all of those sources. That is indeed a vast network of intercepts, however it's not necessarily "global" in the sense that they monitor all communication. If one could choose their Tor link to include enough paths not likely to be monitored by colluding parties, then one could be more certain they are not facing a "global adversary" in the sense that the Tor site means.
    - moe 11y ago

Since the global passive adversary is now a reality (NSA) it seems like Tor is broken by design.

by moe 11y ago

Since the global passive adversary is now a reality (NSA) it seems like Tor is broken by design.

tokenizerrr 11y ago

Not everyone is hiding from the NSA.

andreyf 11y ago
So ToR is like a shitty free VPN? Who can one be hiding from that a cheap VPN to a jurisdiction of your choice won't solve much better?
- tokenizerrr 11y ago
  No, it's not. It's also not written ToR. I recommend you venture over to their website and start reading the documentation.
  - andreyf 11y ago
    Thanks for the correction, I'm not sure why I decided to upper case the R :) To clarify what I think you meant to refer me to, the Tor client actually chooses the three nodes in the path of a circuit, doesn't use two nodes on the same subnet, nor ones the network classifies as belonging to the same "family" (although I'm having trouble determining what this means in practice). Given that there is a hard limit of three nodes in a route, I'm still have trouble thinking of an adversary that Tor protects you against that a VPN to a jurisdiction of your choosing doesn't, and a VPN is significantly faster...

fossuser 11y ago

It's extremely difficult to do (even for the NSA as the leaks mostly showed). Tor is by far the best option that exists today.

andreyf 11y ago

The NSA isn't really global, though. For example, if enough ToR traffic were routed via Asia or South America, I imagine they would not be able to perform much traffic analysis on it.

moe 11y ago
The NSA is very much global and according to the Snowden leaks tapped into a large number of major internet exchanges and sea cables, including the largest internet exchange of the world (Germany, DECIX[1]) as well as the largest exchange in Asia (Hong Kong, HKIX[3]) and South America (Brazil, BRIX[4]) respectively. From what we know the NSA has global coverage with google-style indexing[1] since at least 2012, possibly earlier. [1] https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/08/25/icreach-nsa-cia-secret-google-crisscross-proton/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/08/25/icreach-nsa-ci... [2] http://www.ip-watch.org/2015/04/24/largest-internet-exchange-point-announces-complaint-against-snooping/ http://www.ip-watch.org/2015/04/24/largest-internet-exchange... [3] http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1269773/hong-kongs-internet-exchange-offers-snoopers-rich-pickings http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1269773/hong-kong... [4] http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-the-n-s-a-wants-in-brazil http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-the-n-s-a-wants... [5] http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret-world-communications-nsa http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret... [6] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x6aYnGmbQKzZGLUkWC4mX5eSRlDWpVKls_DjI_gV69A/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CMeo8ZkG#gid=0 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x6aYnGmbQKzZGLUkWC4m...
- andreyf 11y ago
  Thanks for finding all of those sources. That is indeed a vast network of intercepts, however it's not necessarily "global" in the sense that they monitor all communication. If one could choose their Tor link to include enough paths not likely to be monitored by colluding parties, then one could be more certain they are not facing a "global adversary" in the sense that the Tor site means.
  - moe 11y ago