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I find it interesting that they are investigating them for treason, rather than something like espionage. I know nothing of German law, but it feels like it wou

I find it interesting that they are investigating them for treason, rather than something like espionage. I know nothing of German law, but it feels like it would be difficult to prove that they betrayed the country

_stephan 11y ago
See §94 of the German Criminal Code: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p0973 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stg... "§94 Treason (1) Whosoever 1. communicates a state secret to a foreign power or one of its intermediaries; or 2. otherwise allows a state secret to come to the attention of an unauthorised person or to become known to the public in order to prejudice the Federal Republic of Germany or benefit a foreign power and thereby creates a danger of serious prejudice to the external security of the Federal Republic of Germany, shall be liable to imprisonment of not less than one year. (2) ..."
deleted 11y ago
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allendoerfer 11y ago
The first thing they will do is to check whether the documents are actually that confidential. It is not like they released anything we were not quite sure about anyway. The government monitors social networks. Surprise!
AnimalMuppet 11y ago
"Revealing that we're spying on our citizens" == "betraying the country" - at least in the mind of the powers that be, both in Germany and in the US. And, in fact, it makes a certain kind of logic. Per dictionary.com, treason means acting to overthrow one's government or trying to harm or kill the sovereign, but it includes giving aid to the enemies of one's government. Revealing where the government is spying on people may in fact give aid to the enemies of the government. Now, in a free country, that's balanced by the peoples' right to not be spied on by the government. The people have a right to know that the government is crossing that line. (And, in fact, the definition of a free country might be one where the people, rather than the government, are the real sovereign.) But no, it wouldn't be espionage. Espionage would mean that they were themselves spying, which is not the case.
Tomte 11y ago
"Landesverrat" is the core paragraph around the espionage complex. It criminalizes (among other things) passing secret information to foreign powers. As usual when comparing different legal systems it gets muddy. I guess what you're having in mind is more like "Hochverrat" (high treason). An aside: what are the connotations of "treason" and "treachery" in English? Is treason the criminal act against your country and "treachery" more personal, betraying a friend?
- ObviousScience 11y ago
  Your guess about the connotations is correct.
  - Tomte 11y ago
    Thanks to all of you!
- chc 11y ago
  "Treachery" just means a deep betrayal of trust. Treason, very bad personal betrayals and things like industrial espionage could all be called treachery without much argument.
  - escape_goat 11y ago
    To expand on that, "treachery" emphasizes a connotation of moral judgement that is less explicit in "treason", namely because "treason" is always against the legitimate state (outside of hyperbole), and both the legitimacy of the state and the morality of betraying it are recognized as matters on which opinions may differ. One could be treasonous without being treacherous, or treacherous without being treasonous. An opinion regarding usage from a native speaker, here: it might for instance be considered treacherous to lure the King into a forest where he may be murdered, in return for a rich reward from a pretender to the throne; but merely supporting the pretender in hopes of a reward, even to the point of secretly betraying the King, might in other circumstances be plainly and distastefully treasonous without evoking the same connotations as treachery.
- 11y ago

_stephan 11y ago

See §94 of the German Criminal Code: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p0973 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stg... "§94 Treason (1) Whosoever 1. communicates a state secret to a foreign power or one of its intermediaries; or 2. otherwise allows a state secret to come to the attention of an unauthorised person or to become known to the public in order to prejudice the Federal Republic of Germany or benefit a foreign power and thereby creates a danger of serious prejudice to the external security of the Federal Republic of Germany, shall be liable to imprisonment of not less than one year. (2) ..."

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

allendoerfer 11y ago

The first thing they will do is to check whether the documents are actually that confidential. It is not like they released anything we were not quite sure about anyway. The government monitors social networks. Surprise!

AnimalMuppet 11y ago

"Revealing that we're spying on our citizens" == "betraying the country" - at least in the mind of the powers that be, both in Germany and in the US. And, in fact, it makes a certain kind of logic. Per dictionary.com, treason means acting to overthrow one's government or trying to harm or kill the sovereign, but it includes giving aid to the enemies of one's government. Revealing where the government is spying on people may in fact give aid to the enemies of the government. Now, in a free country, that's balanced by the peoples' right to not be spied on by the government. The people have a right to know that the government is crossing that line. (And, in fact, the definition of a free country might be one where the people, rather than the government, are the real sovereign.) But no, it wouldn't be espionage. Espionage would mean that they were themselves spying, which is not the case.

Tomte 11y ago

"Landesverrat" is the core paragraph around the espionage complex. It criminalizes (among other things) passing secret information to foreign powers. As usual when comparing different legal systems it gets muddy. I guess what you're having in mind is more like "Hochverrat" (high treason). An aside: what are the connotations of "treason" and "treachery" in English? Is treason the criminal act against your country and "treachery" more personal, betraying a friend?

ObviousScience 11y ago
Your guess about the connotations is correct.
- Tomte 11y ago
  Thanks to all of you!
chc 11y ago
"Treachery" just means a deep betrayal of trust. Treason, very bad personal betrayals and things like industrial espionage could all be called treachery without much argument.
- escape_goat 11y ago
  To expand on that, "treachery" emphasizes a connotation of moral judgement that is less explicit in "treason", namely because "treason" is always against the legitimate state (outside of hyperbole), and both the legitimacy of the state and the morality of betraying it are recognized as matters on which opinions may differ. One could be treasonous without being treacherous, or treacherous without being treasonous. An opinion regarding usage from a native speaker, here: it might for instance be considered treacherous to lure the King into a forest where he may be murdered, in return for a rich reward from a pretender to the throne; but merely supporting the pretender in hopes of a reward, even to the point of secretly betraying the King, might in other circumstances be plainly and distastefully treasonous without evoking the same connotations as treachery.
11y ago