7 ms·

This is an interesting statement by Amazon about its stance on (persistent) racial slurs.

by ris 11y ago

JosephRedfern 11y ago
If you were to follow the same argument, you could also argue that the continued popularity of Top Gear is an equally interesting statement by society about it's stance on (persistent) racial slurs.
- ris 11y ago
  I don't think racial slurs are Top Gear's primary appeal. They're just slipped in by the hosts (and clearly with the approval of the production team in some circumstances) as a (quite sinister) wink-and-nod to appear chummy with viewers who "think like them". It validates their behaviour and views.
- jarcane 11y ago
  Indeed you could. There's more than enough evidence to bear it out.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  It should come as no surprise that there's a huge segment of society whose stance on racial slurs is 'more, please.'
stephenr 11y ago
Which racial slur is that exactly?
- abstractbeliefs 11y ago
  It's well known in the UK and in that article that he ~ambiguously~ mumbled the word "tigger" in a nursery rhyme.
  - stephenr 11y ago
    I'm not sure how a guy saying something that offends some people once, is "a persistent racial slur"?
    - DanBC 11y ago
      And there's the stuff about "slopes". And the stuff about gypsies. And the stuff about Mexicans. And all the other stuff. http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/here-are-all-the-nonracist-things-jeremy-clarkson-has-said--l14ffimcfe http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/here-are-all-the-nonra... http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/jeremy-clarkson-does-not-see-a-problem-with-his-racist-language-on-top-gear-says-bbc-9683097.html http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/jere... Here's a useful Graniad opinion piece about Clarkson: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/08/not-enough-for-jeremy-clarkson-to-say-not-racist http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/08/not-eno... It's a persistent pattern. Whether that should affect what he's allowed to publish is another matter, but it's probably wrong to say he isn't overtly racist. Some people say "it's just a joke" - fair enough. Here's Stewart Lee responding much better than I can. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7CnMQ4L9Pc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7CnMQ4L9Pc
      - omonra 11y ago
        Thanks for the links. The more I read from this guy, the more I like him. It's sort of a fine balance - we can't have everybody on tv making fun of gypsies and mexicans. On the other hand it feels too sterile when nobody can say what 90% of the people think. I'm glad he exists.
        ris 11y ago
        "what 90% of the people think" I think a lot of people like to think that 90% of the population have the same rather twisted prejudices as them.
        omonra 11y ago
omonra 11y ago
I'm happy to see Amazon not give a toss about non-issues that keep SJWs up at night. Not that I watch the show or care for Clarkson.
- ris 11y ago
  I must assume you consider it a non-issue because you didn't see a clip of, e.g., the "slope" incident, which is unmistakeably a racial reference. The shot in question makes no sense otherwise. Allowing "clever" references like this continue to signal that it's A-OK to use these terms casually. It is not a non-issue. And I suggest you would not consider it a non-issue if it were the word "nigger".
  - omonra 11y ago
    I did not see it - but I read the Wiki article about his controversies. All of them appear to be no more than play on words, there is never any ill will or desire to humiliate anybody. The reason these particular jokes get noticed is because some people are obsessed with crying foul when certain groups are offended. He could make 10 jokes about the English/Scotts/Welsh and nobody would bat an eyelash.
    - ris 11y ago
      So a play on words with the word "nigger" would be ok by you? "...never any ill will or desire to humiliate anybody" - this is the sort of very flimsy faux-naivity that I come to expect in these debates - especially on technical forums with a very literal-thinking crowd. "He could make 10 jokes about the English/Scotts/Welsh and nobody would bat an eyelash." Context. You cannot ignore context as much as you try. In the modern day, the English, Scots and Welsh are not typically discriminated against for their racial "traits". Certainly not in any serious way. Derogatory racial terms are not ok.
      - omonra 11y ago
        The word nigger still has pretty heavy connotations in our society so I don't think it would be ok. As you said yourself - context matters. Likewise, I'm not aware of asians being discriminated in our modern day. That's really the point - I don't have a problem with Clarkson's play on words because to me it's a meaningless sound. And the fact that an asian guy might be called slope/slopes (?) and that's a feature of the bridge is a pun - hence it's funny. They probably make an average of one joke/pun for 30 seconds of the show. Some of them may be unfunny or crude - but unless you can actually demonstrate ill will (simply alluding to the naivette of your interlocutors isn't sufficient) - it's ok.
jo909 11y ago
How many comedians do you know that never make any offensive jokes? Gender, race, handicaps/health etc are very common themes in almost every comedy program I know. I won't judge on the quality of specific jokes and where exactly a bad joke ends and a racial slur begins, but in general it is an accepted part of comedy.
- DanBC 11y ago
  It's fine for people to tell offensive jokes. Is it fine for me to call Roy Chubby Brown lazy and stupid and unfunny because of his bad jokes? Is it fine for me to ask people providing me content to try harder to be funny, rather than just flinging shit and calling it a joke?
  - jo909 11y ago
    I completely agree with you, there is lots of comedy that I dislike and that I choose to live without. Still, implying that Amazon is ok with "racial slurs" is not quite the same than saying that Amazon is ok with "bad comedy". I'm pretty sure some of the existing Amazon Prime original productions will fall into my personal "bad comedy" category already.
  - msandford 11y ago
    I always thought in HN land you got a certain amount of leeway to complain about how X needed to be better and it was OK. But then at some point -- because we recognize how the world actually works -- if you see that X can be better and nobody else can, the onus is on you to actually do X better and prove it. In the business world this is a startup. In comedy, I guess that means being a comedian. From what I can tell it's about the same as startup-land, there's a power law distribution where a few comedians get really wealthy, a bunch of people get by, and tons of folks fail outright. Given the very long road that folks travel to become widely known and "successful" I'd guess that the jokes they tell are in some way reflective of society's preferences. But hey if you know better than all these folks, have at it!
    - DanBC 11y ago
koonsolo 11y ago
Maybe it's a statement on how they feel of everything needing to be politically correct. The shows popularity is probably also an indication on how most people feel about needing to be politically correct. The recent github 'retard' ban is a nice example of forced political correctness.
- wesomefolks 11y ago
  Precisely. Why must every single show on Earth be politically correct and socially sanitized lest it offends anyone? You don't like Clarkson, turn the TV off. It's not hard at all. But to go on and on about a show you dislike, is to be a serf to the zeitgeist of Political Correctness and Cultural Marxism that has been progressively censoring so many aspects of our life, culture and history. This is being done on purpose, but most of the public will never see it or admit it if they see it because most people are programmed to follow the leader(ship) whatever they do. For instance, the Confederate Flag was banned, but the sickle and hammer flag which killed upwards of 100 Million people isn't. So you can tell who is doing the censoring. Meet the new censors, same as the old censors.

This is an interesting statement by Amazon about its stance on (persistent) racial slurs.

by ris 11y ago

This is an interesting statement by Amazon about its stance on (persistent) racial slurs.

If you were to follow the same argument, you could also argue that the continued popularity of Top Gear is an equally interesting statement by society about it's stance on (persistent) racial slurs.

ris 11y ago
I don't think racial slurs are Top Gear's primary appeal. They're just slipped in by the hosts (and clearly with the approval of the production team in some circumstances) as a (quite sinister) wink-and-nod to appear chummy with viewers who "think like them". It validates their behaviour and views.
jarcane 11y ago
Indeed you could. There's more than enough evidence to bear it out.
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
It should come as no surprise that there's a huge segment of society whose stance on racial slurs is 'more, please.'

stephenr 11y ago

Which racial slur is that exactly?

abstractbeliefs 11y ago
It's well known in the UK and in that article that he ~ambiguously~ mumbled the word "tigger" in a nursery rhyme.
- stephenr 11y ago
  I'm not sure how a guy saying something that offends some people once, is "a persistent racial slur"?
  - DanBC 11y ago
    And there's the stuff about "slopes". And the stuff about gypsies. And the stuff about Mexicans. And all the other stuff. http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/here-are-all-the-nonracist-things-jeremy-clarkson-has-said--l14ffimcfe http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/here-are-all-the-nonra... http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/jeremy-clarkson-does-not-see-a-problem-with-his-racist-language-on-top-gear-says-bbc-9683097.html http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/jere... Here's a useful Graniad opinion piece about Clarkson: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/08/not-enough-for-jeremy-clarkson-to-say-not-racist http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/08/not-eno... It's a persistent pattern. Whether that should affect what he's allowed to publish is another matter, but it's probably wrong to say he isn't overtly racist. Some people say "it's just a joke" - fair enough. Here's Stewart Lee responding much better than I can. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7CnMQ4L9Pc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7CnMQ4L9Pc
    - omonra 11y ago
      Thanks for the links. The more I read from this guy, the more I like him. It's sort of a fine balance - we can't have everybody on tv making fun of gypsies and mexicans. On the other hand it feels too sterile when nobody can say what 90% of the people think. I'm glad he exists.
      - ris 11y ago
        "what 90% of the people think" I think a lot of people like to think that 90% of the population have the same rather twisted prejudices as them.
        omonra 11y ago

omonra 11y ago

I'm happy to see Amazon not give a toss about non-issues that keep SJWs up at night. Not that I watch the show or care for Clarkson.

ris 11y ago
I must assume you consider it a non-issue because you didn't see a clip of, e.g., the "slope" incident, which is unmistakeably a racial reference. The shot in question makes no sense otherwise. Allowing "clever" references like this continue to signal that it's A-OK to use these terms casually. It is not a non-issue. And I suggest you would not consider it a non-issue if it were the word "nigger".
- omonra 11y ago
  I did not see it - but I read the Wiki article about his controversies. All of them appear to be no more than play on words, there is never any ill will or desire to humiliate anybody. The reason these particular jokes get noticed is because some people are obsessed with crying foul when certain groups are offended. He could make 10 jokes about the English/Scotts/Welsh and nobody would bat an eyelash.
  - ris 11y ago
    So a play on words with the word "nigger" would be ok by you? "...never any ill will or desire to humiliate anybody" - this is the sort of very flimsy faux-naivity that I come to expect in these debates - especially on technical forums with a very literal-thinking crowd. "He could make 10 jokes about the English/Scotts/Welsh and nobody would bat an eyelash." Context. You cannot ignore context as much as you try. In the modern day, the English, Scots and Welsh are not typically discriminated against for their racial "traits". Certainly not in any serious way. Derogatory racial terms are not ok.
    - omonra 11y ago
      The word nigger still has pretty heavy connotations in our society so I don't think it would be ok. As you said yourself - context matters. Likewise, I'm not aware of asians being discriminated in our modern day. That's really the point - I don't have a problem with Clarkson's play on words because to me it's a meaningless sound. And the fact that an asian guy might be called slope/slopes (?) and that's a feature of the bridge is a pun - hence it's funny. They probably make an average of one joke/pun for 30 seconds of the show. Some of them may be unfunny or crude - but unless you can actually demonstrate ill will (simply alluding to the naivette of your interlocutors isn't sufficient) - it's ok.

jo909 11y ago

How many comedians do you know that never make any offensive jokes? Gender, race, handicaps/health etc are very common themes in almost every comedy program I know. I won't judge on the quality of specific jokes and where exactly a bad joke ends and a racial slur begins, but in general it is an accepted part of comedy.

DanBC 11y ago
It's fine for people to tell offensive jokes. Is it fine for me to call Roy Chubby Brown lazy and stupid and unfunny because of his bad jokes? Is it fine for me to ask people providing me content to try harder to be funny, rather than just flinging shit and calling it a joke?
- jo909 11y ago
  I completely agree with you, there is lots of comedy that I dislike and that I choose to live without. Still, implying that Amazon is ok with "racial slurs" is not quite the same than saying that Amazon is ok with "bad comedy". I'm pretty sure some of the existing Amazon Prime original productions will fall into my personal "bad comedy" category already.
- msandford 11y ago
  I always thought in HN land you got a certain amount of leeway to complain about how X needed to be better and it was OK. But then at some point -- because we recognize how the world actually works -- if you see that X can be better and nobody else can, the onus is on you to actually do X better and prove it. In the business world this is a startup. In comedy, I guess that means being a comedian. From what I can tell it's about the same as startup-land, there's a power law distribution where a few comedians get really wealthy, a bunch of people get by, and tons of folks fail outright. Given the very long road that folks travel to become widely known and "successful" I'd guess that the jokes they tell are in some way reflective of society's preferences. But hey if you know better than all these folks, have at it!
  - DanBC 11y ago

koonsolo 11y ago

Maybe it's a statement on how they feel of everything needing to be politically correct. The shows popularity is probably also an indication on how most people feel about needing to be politically correct. The recent github 'retard' ban is a nice example of forced political correctness.

wesomefolks 11y ago
Precisely. Why must every single show on Earth be politically correct and socially sanitized lest it offends anyone? You don't like Clarkson, turn the TV off. It's not hard at all. But to go on and on about a show you dislike, is to be a serf to the zeitgeist of Political Correctness and Cultural Marxism that has been progressively censoring so many aspects of our life, culture and history. This is being done on purpose, but most of the public will never see it or admit it if they see it because most people are programmed to follow the leader(ship) whatever they do. For instance, the Confederate Flag was banned, but the sickle and hammer flag which killed upwards of 100 Million people isn't. So you can tell who is doing the censoring. Meet the new censors, same as the old censors.