6 ms·

"We’ve seen videos of innocent black citizens gunned down by the police that is supposed to protect them" Really? Where are these videos. I think I only saw

"We’ve seen videos of innocent black citizens gunned down by the police that is supposed to protect them" Really? Where are these videos. I think I only saw one video making the rounds where this was the case. The rest was speculation and mob mentality. "Hands up Don't shoot", for instance, never happened. "We’ve seen a community devastated by a terrorist attack that can only be described as pure, premeditated evil" This sort of "evil" happens almost every day in the inner city. Chicago, for instance, had 7+ shootings in only one weekend. Why are we focusing on the one rare nutcase and someone making it into proof that an entire community of people are racist (ironic that this is exactly what we are trying to stop: judging an entire group of people on one person's actions). How about the college event in Ohio that stated that only "African Americans" can attend and the guy (who was not African American" filming was pushed around and bullied?? How about the trans-gendered guest on the Dr. Drew HLN show that not only put his hand around the another guest's throat he was supposed to be debating, but threatened him with violence?? "It was only recently, when White-on-Black police brutality and terrorism began to surface in the news," How can you possibly call this "terrorism"?? In nearly all cases I've seen so far, the police offers asked the person in question to stop or comply..and they resisted, which resulted in a use of justified force. "that I was turned on to a stream of different voices. Reading the #drivingwhileblack tweets" Which is bullshit. I'm not black and have gotten stopped multiple times in my life for things I considered bullshit. If you give the cop an attitude, you will suffer the consequences. If you comply and are cool about everything the officer asks, he will let you go or write you a ticket. You need to think about it from his/her perspective: If you overpower the officer, they could lose their life. "I think we need to readily acknowledge that we are racist," Speak for yourself. I give everyone an equal chance, regardless of race. It's their actions later that determine whether I like them or not. I'm sick and tired of the thought police somehow trying to convince me that I'm racist. If the majority of people in this country were really racist, we wouldn't have people of color in pretty much every position of power and occupation..including the presidency.

marcusgarvey 11y ago
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/nov/26/cleveland-video-tamir-rice-shooting-police http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/nov/26/clevela... http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/sep/25/ohio-shooting-walmart-video http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/sep/25/ohio-shoo... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azy3OBLXX-g&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azy3OBLXX-g&feature=youtu.be
- rmxt 11y ago
  It's unfortunate, but the GP will probably see these videos and feel vindicated in their belief that these cops are acting righteously, purely in self-defense. It works for both sides of the coin, but when presented with conflicting evidence people often double down on their beliefs. (e.g. Statements like "These videos prove that there are no systemic factors at play, this is pure self-defense. It's just a coincidence that these people are all black.")
hoopd 11y ago
Have you considered an anonymous account? You should know that what you've said is considered totally racist these days and you'll have to write an article like the one you just criticized if you ever want to clear your name.
- andrewmcwatters 11y ago
  Yeah, if you associate with idiots. Hey check out my username, it's my actual name, too!
- animefan 11y ago
  Which parts of that post were so extreme that it would be wiser to say then anonymously, in your view? The fact that so called "racists" are unable to freely[0] express even a moderate opposition to the mainstream narrative on racism, is the best proof that this narrative is at best incomplete. [0] e.g. without fear of losing ones job.
  - hoopd 11y ago
    I don't think any of it's extreme, it's just an opinion. Still he might not want it coming up when a hiring manager googles his name 5-10 years down the road. If HN let us delete our names and/or comments it would be different.
    - animefan 11y ago
      I guess part of my point was that when your post implies some implicit threat, you should be clear on whether you are merely warning of this threat or whether you think it's a good thing. Otherwise you might end to inadvertently supporting a system you don't intend to.
- brightshadow 11y ago
  I'm not sure if this response is serious or not, but it's this kind of thinking that makes me lament the loss of reasonable discourse in this country.
andrewmcwatters 11y ago
Basically this. This whole "I'm racist, you're racist, can the world ever forgive us?" wave of pseudoempathy is a load of nonsense.
marcusgarvey 11y ago
>If the majority of people in this country were really racist, we wouldn't have people of color in pretty much every position of power and occupation..including the presidency. Funny. I take the exact same anecdotes and conclude, "Wow, black Americans are pretty resilient." >Federal troops withdrew from the South in 1877. The dream of Reconstruction died. For the next century, political violence was visited upon blacks wantonly, with special treatment meted out toward black people of ambition. Black schools and churches were burned to the ground. Black voters and the political candidates who attempted to rally them were intimidated, and some were murdered. At the end of World War I, black veterans returning to their homes were assaulted for daring to wear the American uniform. The demobilization of soldiers after the war, which put white and black veterans into competition for scarce jobs, produced the Red Summer of 1919: a succession of racist pogroms against dozens of cities ranging from Longview, Texas, to Chicago to Washington, D.C. Organized white violence against blacks continued into the 1920s—in 1921 a white mob leveled Tulsa’s “Black Wall Street,” and in 1923 another one razed the black town of Rosewood, Florida—and virtually no one was punished. >Having been enslaved for 250 years, black people were not left to their own devices. They were terrorized. In the Deep South, a second slavery ruled. In the North, legislatures, mayors, civic associations, banks, and citizens all colluded to pin black people into ghettos, where they were overcrowded, overcharged, and undereducated. Businesses discriminated against them, awarding them the worst jobs and the worst wages. Police brutalized them in the streets. And the notion that black lives, black bodies, and black wealth were rightful targets remained deeply rooted in the broader society. Now we have half-stepped away from our long centuries of despoilment, promising, “Never again.” But still we are haunted. It is as though we have run up a credit-card bill and, having pledged to charge no more, remain befuddled that the balance does not disappear. The effects of that balance, interest accruing daily, are all around us. [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case...
KingMob 11y ago
I think the key point you (and many people) are missing is understanding how much racist behavior is unconscious. I'm engaged to a woman who's half-black, and I still occasionally say something slightly racist by accident. Check out the Implicit Association Test (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit-association_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit-association_test) for an introduction to this line of research. You can still be doing/saying racist things while meaning well. The only solution is self-awareness and humility.
codehotter 11y ago
Let me first state why I disagree with you, and then why I don't think you should be downvoted. (at the time I'm writing this, parent's post is light grey.) Time and time again, studies demonstrate that we are all a little bit racist. Another commenter pointed out that the Implicit Association Test is a nice introduction to this research. You can take a test here: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html Unconscious discrimination is a serious source of hardship for minorities and it's important to be aware of our bias. This is what the author of the article is getting at, and he is correct in the central point. However, we live in a culture where racists are the scum of the earth, fired from their jobs, ostracized, hated universally. You can even be fired from your job if you defend someone that's a racist [1] Given how hated racism is in our culture right now, debate about racial issues is skewed in three ways. First, we might not take the side of the privileged in an issue because we fear we are being unconsciously racist. Second, we might not take the side of the privileged in an issue because we fear we might be called a racist, and, if not immediately fired from ours jobs, at least shunned. Finally, we might not take the side of the privileged in an issue, because even if taking their side would be technically correct, the privileged already have enough privilege, so to say, and by speaking out in favor of them we might be weakening the forces which are working hard to eliminate racism from society as much as possible. These biases can be just as unconscious. And they obscure the truth. Parent is also speaking out of fear. He has come to believe that acknowledging the existence of implicit racism, is the same as always siding with the minority in every case. Even in cases where the minority is clearly in the wrong. If you value truth, this is an abomination. If you value truth enough, it's something to get extremely angry about. By heavily downvoting parent's post, you are confirming these exact fears, while ignoring the true criticism hidden within. You are turning people away from the movement to eliminate racism, or at least making them less enthusiastic. And therefore you are doing more to slow the eradication of racism than posts like parent's ever would. Can we upvote parent for his bravery in speaking out against the bias our culture currently has? And calmly and rationally debate his concerns? That would be infinitely more convincing than the downvote button. [1] http://www.gamerevolution.com/manifesto/turtle-rock-community-manager-understandably-fired-for-donald-sterling-tweets-25601 http://www.gamerevolution.com/manifesto/turtle-rock-communit...
- 11y ago
jlipps 11y ago
Thanks for your thoughts. The point of my article wasn't to deny that there are any counterexamples to my overarching theme. No argument involving society is going to be free of counterexamples. I disagree with some things you've said here but will just say 2 things: 1. I'm grateful you give everyone an equal chance. I thought I did too until I uncovered what I now believe to be an ingrained sort of bias. If you're free from that, more power to you! Far be it from me to tell you who you are. 2. I do believe that racism is one of the hidden engines of society, and inhabits each of us more than we know for that reason. That's why I was proposing to move the dialogue from an existential proof of racism to a question of how exactly it has shaped us. It's not (or doesn't feel like) "pseudoempathy" as another commenter put it. It feels like moving past denial to a more productive mode of engagement with this gnarled issue.

marcusgarvey 11y ago

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/nov/26/cleveland-video-tamir-rice-shooting-police http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/nov/26/clevela... http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/sep/25/ohio-shooting-walmart-video http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/sep/25/ohio-shoo... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azy3OBLXX-g&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azy3OBLXX-g&feature=youtu.be

rmxt 11y ago
It's unfortunate, but the GP will probably see these videos and feel vindicated in their belief that these cops are acting righteously, purely in self-defense. It works for both sides of the coin, but when presented with conflicting evidence people often double down on their beliefs. (e.g. Statements like "These videos prove that there are no systemic factors at play, this is pure self-defense. It's just a coincidence that these people are all black.")

hoopd 11y ago

Have you considered an anonymous account? You should know that what you've said is considered totally racist these days and you'll have to write an article like the one you just criticized if you ever want to clear your name.

andrewmcwatters 11y ago
Yeah, if you associate with idiots. Hey check out my username, it's my actual name, too!
animefan 11y ago
Which parts of that post were so extreme that it would be wiser to say then anonymously, in your view? The fact that so called "racists" are unable to freely[0] express even a moderate opposition to the mainstream narrative on racism, is the best proof that this narrative is at best incomplete. [0] e.g. without fear of losing ones job.
- hoopd 11y ago
  I don't think any of it's extreme, it's just an opinion. Still he might not want it coming up when a hiring manager googles his name 5-10 years down the road. If HN let us delete our names and/or comments it would be different.
  - animefan 11y ago
    I guess part of my point was that when your post implies some implicit threat, you should be clear on whether you are merely warning of this threat or whether you think it's a good thing. Otherwise you might end to inadvertently supporting a system you don't intend to.
brightshadow 11y ago
I'm not sure if this response is serious or not, but it's this kind of thinking that makes me lament the loss of reasonable discourse in this country.

andrewmcwatters 11y ago

Basically this. This whole "I'm racist, you're racist, can the world ever forgive us?" wave of pseudoempathy is a load of nonsense.

marcusgarvey 11y ago

>If the majority of people in this country were really racist, we wouldn't have people of color in pretty much every position of power and occupation..including the presidency. Funny. I take the exact same anecdotes and conclude, "Wow, black Americans are pretty resilient." >Federal troops withdrew from the South in 1877. The dream of Reconstruction died. For the next century, political violence was visited upon blacks wantonly, with special treatment meted out toward black people of ambition. Black schools and churches were burned to the ground. Black voters and the political candidates who attempted to rally them were intimidated, and some were murdered. At the end of World War I, black veterans returning to their homes were assaulted for daring to wear the American uniform. The demobilization of soldiers after the war, which put white and black veterans into competition for scarce jobs, produced the Red Summer of 1919: a succession of racist pogroms against dozens of cities ranging from Longview, Texas, to Chicago to Washington, D.C. Organized white violence against blacks continued into the 1920s—in 1921 a white mob leveled Tulsa’s “Black Wall Street,” and in 1923 another one razed the black town of Rosewood, Florida—and virtually no one was punished. >Having been enslaved for 250 years, black people were not left to their own devices. They were terrorized. In the Deep South, a second slavery ruled. In the North, legislatures, mayors, civic associations, banks, and citizens all colluded to pin black people into ghettos, where they were overcrowded, overcharged, and undereducated. Businesses discriminated against them, awarding them the worst jobs and the worst wages. Police brutalized them in the streets. And the notion that black lives, black bodies, and black wealth were rightful targets remained deeply rooted in the broader society. Now we have half-stepped away from our long centuries of despoilment, promising, “Never again.” But still we are haunted. It is as though we have run up a credit-card bill and, having pledged to charge no more, remain befuddled that the balance does not disappear. The effects of that balance, interest accruing daily, are all around us. [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case...

KingMob 11y ago

I think the key point you (and many people) are missing is understanding how much racist behavior is unconscious. I'm engaged to a woman who's half-black, and I still occasionally say something slightly racist by accident. Check out the Implicit Association Test (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit-association_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit-association_test) for an introduction to this line of research. You can still be doing/saying racist things while meaning well. The only solution is self-awareness and humility.

codehotter 11y ago

Let me first state why I disagree with you, and then why I don't think you should be downvoted. (at the time I'm writing this, parent's post is light grey.) Time and time again, studies demonstrate that we are all a little bit racist. Another commenter pointed out that the Implicit Association Test is a nice introduction to this research. You can take a test here: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html Unconscious discrimination is a serious source of hardship for minorities and it's important to be aware of our bias. This is what the author of the article is getting at, and he is correct in the central point. However, we live in a culture where racists are the scum of the earth, fired from their jobs, ostracized, hated universally. You can even be fired from your job if you defend someone that's a racist [1] Given how hated racism is in our culture right now, debate about racial issues is skewed in three ways. First, we might not take the side of the privileged in an issue because we fear we are being unconsciously racist. Second, we might not take the side of the privileged in an issue because we fear we might be called a racist, and, if not immediately fired from ours jobs, at least shunned. Finally, we might not take the side of the privileged in an issue, because even if taking their side would be technically correct, the privileged already have enough privilege, so to say, and by speaking out in favor of them we might be weakening the forces which are working hard to eliminate racism from society as much as possible. These biases can be just as unconscious. And they obscure the truth. Parent is also speaking out of fear. He has come to believe that acknowledging the existence of implicit racism, is the same as always siding with the minority in every case. Even in cases where the minority is clearly in the wrong. If you value truth, this is an abomination. If you value truth enough, it's something to get extremely angry about. By heavily downvoting parent's post, you are confirming these exact fears, while ignoring the true criticism hidden within. You are turning people away from the movement to eliminate racism, or at least making them less enthusiastic. And therefore you are doing more to slow the eradication of racism than posts like parent's ever would. Can we upvote parent for his bravery in speaking out against the bias our culture currently has? And calmly and rationally debate his concerns? That would be infinitely more convincing than the downvote button. [1] http://www.gamerevolution.com/manifesto/turtle-rock-community-manager-understandably-fired-for-donald-sterling-tweets-25601 http://www.gamerevolution.com/manifesto/turtle-rock-communit...

11y ago

jlipps 11y ago

Thanks for your thoughts. The point of my article wasn't to deny that there are any counterexamples to my overarching theme. No argument involving society is going to be free of counterexamples. I disagree with some things you've said here but will just say 2 things: 1. I'm grateful you give everyone an equal chance. I thought I did too until I uncovered what I now believe to be an ingrained sort of bias. If you're free from that, more power to you! Far be it from me to tell you who you are. 2. I do believe that racism is one of the hidden engines of society, and inhabits each of us more than we know for that reason. That's why I was proposing to move the dialogue from an existential proof of racism to a question of how exactly it has shaped us. It's not (or doesn't feel like) "pseudoempathy" as another commenter put it. It feels like moving past denial to a more productive mode of engagement with this gnarled issue.