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It's not fully clear whether the German government has jurisdiction here, with Facebook nominally residing in Ireland. A case has just been filed by the Hamburg

by creshal 11y ago

It's not fully clear whether the German government has jurisdiction here, with Facebook nominally residing in Ireland. A case has just been filed by the Hamburg state government, but that can easily take years to go through courts. > How can a government have jurisdiction over this? Because the government can decide that demanding a driver's license is illegal because it is an unreasonable burden on users, simple as that. German law states it must be possible to use a service anonymously or pseudonymously "if it is technically possible and reasonable". Whether it is reasonable in this particular case is for the courts to decide. (cf. Telemediengesetz, http://www.cgerli.org/index.php?id=51&tx_vmdocumentsearch_pi2[docID]=1438 http://www.cgerli.org/index.php?id=51&tx_vmdocumentsearch_pi... )

personjerry 11y ago
That makes sense, thank you for explaining the particular details.
_ak 11y ago
Facebook is operating in Germany, among other countries. If they want to earn money in Germany, they need to obey to German laws and regulations, obviously.
- creshal 11y ago
  With the internet being the poorly regulated series of tubes it is, they argue they're operating and earning money solely in Ireland, not Germany. Whether the judge will be amused by this, we'll see.
  - _ak 11y ago
    They operate offices in Hamburg and Berlin. They specifically target German advertisers. They won't be that stupid to even attempt that argument.
    - pjc50 11y ago
      They already have argued that the datacentre is in Ireland and therefore not subject to this ruling. Again, we await a jurisdiction ruling.
    - creshal 11y ago
      They did – publicly, at least. We'll see what they argue in court.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
mseebach 11y ago
They can decide all that, but that doesn't give them clear jurisdiction to actually enforce it. They can penalise users doing it, possibly by making it a breach of the terms of carrying a drivers license to use it for this purpose, although it's not clear how they'd prove such usage. Alternatively, they can try to hit Facebook's ad sales in Germany, but that's likely to run into common market rules around trade barriers. Anyway, does Facebook actually enforce this? I have never shown any ID to Facebook, and I see plenty of people not using their real names (typically they use derivatives or add a screenname as a middle name, rather than being totally pseudonymous).
- pjc50 11y ago
  They can issue a court order, and if Facebook were to go full "freemen of the land" and try to ignore it there's always the European Arrest Warrant.
- Broken_Hippo 11y ago
  "Does facebook actually enforce this?" .... The answer to this question is a loud "yes". The harderst hit groups I've found are transgender folks and occultists. As far as being pagan/occultist, many prefer to keep a seperate account for their religious lives, partially because many live in places where they would be persecuted. In addition, many have a magical name that is part of their chosen religion, that they prefer to be addressed by in such circles. The result of the real name policy, outside of taking away individual privacy, has been the shutting down of accounts, forcing people to provide identifacation, phone numbers, etc, to prove you are you, and insisting that the name matches the legal name. Some people never really seem to be able to unlock the original account (or don't want to give facebook ID)
- Symbiote 11y ago
  Facebook completely enforces this, but only acts on profiles that are reported to them. Around a year ago, many of my friends were in a "Gay Pride 2014 parade" group. Over two or three days, everyone in that group with a fake-looking name was reported. A little later, everyone who had 'liked' a local gay nightclub page was reported. The obvious conclusion was someone with an agenda was searching particular groups for people to report.
DanBC 11y ago
> It's not fully clear whether the German government has jurisdiction here, with Facebook nominally residing in Ireland. Facebook has offices in London and Hamburg so "operating out of Ireland" is a bit of a stretch that seems to work with tax authorities, but may not work with other law enforcement.
rbehrends 11y ago
> It's not fully clear whether the German government has jurisdiction here, with Facebook nominally residing in Ireland. The Schleswig-Holstein data protection authority lost a case against Facebook in 2013 because the court ruled that Germany didn't have jurisdiction. However, the Google Spain case last year changed that pretty decisively. It's difficult to see (after Google lost before the CJEU) why Germany should not have jurisdiction in this case.

by creshal 11y ago

personjerry 11y ago

That makes sense, thank you for explaining the particular details.

_ak 11y ago

Facebook is operating in Germany, among other countries. If they want to earn money in Germany, they need to obey to German laws and regulations, obviously.

creshal 11y ago
With the internet being the poorly regulated series of tubes it is, they argue they're operating and earning money solely in Ireland, not Germany. Whether the judge will be amused by this, we'll see.
- _ak 11y ago
  They operate offices in Hamburg and Berlin. They specifically target German advertisers. They won't be that stupid to even attempt that argument.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    They already have argued that the datacentre is in Ireland and therefore not subject to this ruling. Again, we await a jurisdiction ruling.
  - creshal 11y ago
    They did – publicly, at least. We'll see what they argue in court.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

mseebach 11y ago

They can decide all that, but that doesn't give them clear jurisdiction to actually enforce it. They can penalise users doing it, possibly by making it a breach of the terms of carrying a drivers license to use it for this purpose, although it's not clear how they'd prove such usage. Alternatively, they can try to hit Facebook's ad sales in Germany, but that's likely to run into common market rules around trade barriers. Anyway, does Facebook actually enforce this? I have never shown any ID to Facebook, and I see plenty of people not using their real names (typically they use derivatives or add a screenname as a middle name, rather than being totally pseudonymous).

pjc50 11y ago
They can issue a court order, and if Facebook were to go full "freemen of the land" and try to ignore it there's always the European Arrest Warrant.
Broken_Hippo 11y ago
"Does facebook actually enforce this?" .... The answer to this question is a loud "yes". The harderst hit groups I've found are transgender folks and occultists. As far as being pagan/occultist, many prefer to keep a seperate account for their religious lives, partially because many live in places where they would be persecuted. In addition, many have a magical name that is part of their chosen religion, that they prefer to be addressed by in such circles. The result of the real name policy, outside of taking away individual privacy, has been the shutting down of accounts, forcing people to provide identifacation, phone numbers, etc, to prove you are you, and insisting that the name matches the legal name. Some people never really seem to be able to unlock the original account (or don't want to give facebook ID)
Symbiote 11y ago
Facebook completely enforces this, but only acts on profiles that are reported to them. Around a year ago, many of my friends were in a "Gay Pride 2014 parade" group. Over two or three days, everyone in that group with a fake-looking name was reported. A little later, everyone who had 'liked' a local gay nightclub page was reported. The obvious conclusion was someone with an agenda was searching particular groups for people to report.

DanBC 11y ago

> It's not fully clear whether the German government has jurisdiction here, with Facebook nominally residing in Ireland. Facebook has offices in London and Hamburg so "operating out of Ireland" is a bit of a stretch that seems to work with tax authorities, but may not work with other law enforcement.

rbehrends 11y ago

> It's not fully clear whether the German government has jurisdiction here, with Facebook nominally residing in Ireland. The Schleswig-Holstein data protection authority lost a case against Facebook in 2013 because the court ruled that Germany didn't have jurisdiction. However, the Google Spain case last year changed that pretty decisively. It's difficult to see (after Google lost before the CJEU) why Germany should not have jurisdiction in this case.