3 ms·

They should be 'fully transparent' and publish the algorithm in a simple layman's formula

by codewithcheese 11y ago

Breefield 11y ago
Put on your product designer hat for just one second.
run4yourlives2 11y ago
So should a lot of industries. Tell me, what's the spread on a Big Mac? A new car? Anything, really?
- minimaxir 11y ago
  Finance is a little bit different. There's a reason the SEC exists.
  - run4yourlives2 11y ago
    Fair enough, but you are at no time less than whole here, so how they decide to split your cash isn't much different than you deciding to buy product a over product b.
- codewithcheese 11y ago
  It important to know when it's a company that is portioning out your paycheck. It nothing like the margins on products that you purchase.
  - run4yourlives2 11y ago
    Not really, since they are never taking any portion of that paycheck away from you. It's all yours at the end of the day, they just keep it "in trust". (The point I'm struggling with is how they do this without a) earning interest, and b) earning enough for themselves)
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      Burning VC money while building a customer base who is giving them access to their bank accounts, to sell future financial services?
    - ac29 11y ago
      They charge ~$150/year for the service according to their FAQ: https://even.me/faq https://even.me/faq
- nmrm2 11y ago
  The algorithm is a key component of the actual product they are selling to their customers. It's reasonable for customers to ask for a reasonably complete description of that product (note: your parent isn't asking for source code). Even's algorithm is not comparable to actuararial predictions and it is not comparable to spread; both of the former are primarily useful to investors and executives, whereas Even's algorithm is primarily useful information for customers. It might be easier to infer Even's spread if you knew the algorithm, but the algorithm and Even's spread aren't one and the same. Per your example, it's easier to infer a Big Mac's spread if you know they're using real meat or to infer a car's spread if you know the seats are real leather. But that doesn't give those companies a positive reason to not disclose the approximate contents of their meat patties or the material their luxury seats are made of.
  - run4yourlives2 11y ago
    Cars and Big Macs, like pretty much anything, are priced in no way according to their manufacturing or contents cost (aside from the end cost being something more than the sum of the cost of parts). You can't infer anything about the cost of a particular car by knowing the cost of the seats. If fact, it's quite possible that your "upgraded leather seats" cost less than their standard cloth equivalents. That's my entire point. The algorithm is important, sure, but not to the end consumer. At least, not to enough end consumers. I'm sure their investors are well aware of the details, but they are under no obligation to make those details public. If fact, they could probably successfully argue that it is a trade secret.
    - nmrm2 11y ago
      > You can't infer anything about the cost of a particular car by knowing the cost of the seats. Oh man, my car analogy isn't accurate ;-) > Cars and Big Macs, like pretty much anything, are priced in no way according to their manufacturing or contents cost This may be true for cars and big macs, but you know what I'm saying -- knowing the components contained in a product is different from knowing the spread on that product, even if knowing the comnponents tells you something about the spread^1. In any case, this is all irrelevant to the central and irrefutable point -- that that the way the algorithm works is of immediate and obvious importance to the customer. > but not to the end consumer. Sorry, but the burden of proof here is on you. How is the algorithm not important to the end consumer? It's deciding how much money they get each week. How many things in life are less important?! > but they are under no obligation to make those details public. In fact, it'd be unsurprising to learn that they are. -- footnote 1: BTW, I think you're unintentionally arguing against yourself. In the event that knowing the components (i.e. the leather, the algorithm) tells you nothing about the spread -- as you maintain in your last comment -- you're basically conceding my point that there is a difference between knowledge of components (i.e., what you're getting) and knowledge of spread. In which case revealing the components can't possibly be justified on the basis that companies shouldn't have to reveal spread. My argument was that even when components do tell you about spread, sometimes it's still necessary to say what those component are. And there are clearly examples of products where "what you get" does reveal spread (e.g., anything closely tied to commodities w/ very little or inexpensive manufacturing). But as I said, this is all a bit of a tangent.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Tell me, what's the spread on a Big Mac? McDonald's is selling a predictable burger experience, you don't need to know the spread for that. Even is selling a predictable income experience...
9872 11y ago
I would be shocked if that were possible to do.

They should be 'fully transparent' and publish the algorithm in a simple layman's formula

Breefield 11y ago

Put on your product designer hat for just one second.

run4yourlives2 11y ago

So should a lot of industries. Tell me, what's the spread on a Big Mac? A new car? Anything, really?

minimaxir 11y ago
Finance is a little bit different. There's a reason the SEC exists.
- run4yourlives2 11y ago
  Fair enough, but you are at no time less than whole here, so how they decide to split your cash isn't much different than you deciding to buy product a over product b.
codewithcheese 11y ago
It important to know when it's a company that is portioning out your paycheck. It nothing like the margins on products that you purchase.
- run4yourlives2 11y ago
  Not really, since they are never taking any portion of that paycheck away from you. It's all yours at the end of the day, they just keep it "in trust". (The point I'm struggling with is how they do this without a) earning interest, and b) earning enough for themselves)
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    Burning VC money while building a customer base who is giving them access to their bank accounts, to sell future financial services?
  - ac29 11y ago
    They charge ~$150/year for the service according to their FAQ: https://even.me/faq https://even.me/faq
nmrm2 11y ago
The algorithm is a key component of the actual product they are selling to their customers. It's reasonable for customers to ask for a reasonably complete description of that product (note: your parent isn't asking for source code). Even's algorithm is not comparable to actuararial predictions and it is not comparable to spread; both of the former are primarily useful to investors and executives, whereas Even's algorithm is primarily useful information for customers. It might be easier to infer Even's spread if you knew the algorithm, but the algorithm and Even's spread aren't one and the same. Per your example, it's easier to infer a Big Mac's spread if you know they're using real meat or to infer a car's spread if you know the seats are real leather. But that doesn't give those companies a positive reason to not disclose the approximate contents of their meat patties or the material their luxury seats are made of.
- run4yourlives2 11y ago
  Cars and Big Macs, like pretty much anything, are priced in no way according to their manufacturing or contents cost (aside from the end cost being something more than the sum of the cost of parts). You can't infer anything about the cost of a particular car by knowing the cost of the seats. If fact, it's quite possible that your "upgraded leather seats" cost less than their standard cloth equivalents. That's my entire point. The algorithm is important, sure, but not to the end consumer. At least, not to enough end consumers. I'm sure their investors are well aware of the details, but they are under no obligation to make those details public. If fact, they could probably successfully argue that it is a trade secret.
  - nmrm2 11y ago
    > You can't infer anything about the cost of a particular car by knowing the cost of the seats. Oh man, my car analogy isn't accurate ;-) > Cars and Big Macs, like pretty much anything, are priced in no way according to their manufacturing or contents cost This may be true for cars and big macs, but you know what I'm saying -- knowing the components contained in a product is different from knowing the spread on that product, even if knowing the comnponents tells you something about the spread^1. In any case, this is all irrelevant to the central and irrefutable point -- that that the way the algorithm works is of immediate and obvious importance to the customer. > but not to the end consumer. Sorry, but the burden of proof here is on you. How is the algorithm not important to the end consumer? It's deciding how much money they get each week. How many things in life are less important?! > but they are under no obligation to make those details public. In fact, it'd be unsurprising to learn that they are. -- footnote 1: BTW, I think you're unintentionally arguing against yourself. In the event that knowing the components (i.e. the leather, the algorithm) tells you nothing about the spread -- as you maintain in your last comment -- you're basically conceding my point that there is a difference between knowledge of components (i.e., what you're getting) and knowledge of spread. In which case revealing the components can't possibly be justified on the basis that companies shouldn't have to reveal spread. My argument was that even when components do tell you about spread, sometimes it's still necessary to say what those component are. And there are clearly examples of products where "what you get" does reveal spread (e.g., anything closely tied to commodities w/ very little or inexpensive manufacturing). But as I said, this is all a bit of a tangent.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> Tell me, what's the spread on a Big Mac? McDonald's is selling a predictable burger experience, you don't need to know the spread for that. Even is selling a predictable income experience...

9872 11y ago

I would be shocked if that were possible to do.