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> We’re pushing the web forward to emulate native more and more, but we can’t out-native native. I can do better than native. I can update web apps without tr

> We’re pushing the web forward to emulate native more and more, but we can’t out-native native. I can do better than native. I can update web apps without troubling the end user, fix bugs and make improvements immediately. I can balance processing where heavy lifting is done on my servers and simple processing done on the client. I can store immense data in the cloud freeing the end user's machine from any such junk, aside from maybe a cookie, and stream it on demand. Why should someone have to install anything on a phone, tablet or PC? Feels archaic. Open browser. Navigate to URL. Do work, enjoy media, etc.

pholmq 11y ago
Best comment so far! The web is a multi platform client-server application environment. Sanboxed so that unsecure (javascript) code can be downloaded and executed at runtime. THIS is the killer feature of the web. No other app environment has this and Web and JS will eat native apps in the long run because of it.
pdkl95 11y ago
> I can do better than native. No, you can't. Not even close. Just because you only ever use a subset of what can be done in a native application doesn't mean the rest of us don't. Also, which "native"? Win32 != OSX != X11 != mobile != ... > I can update web apps without troubling the end user, Which makes you the source of one of the most common types of user frustration: apps that change without their authorization, sometimes breaking important things that used to work just fine. > ... processing ... done on my servers ... Ahh, so you just want to lock people in using Service as a Software Substitute[1]. Trying to do an end-run around "1st sale" rights to insert yourself as a middleman where none was needed previously is terrible, sociopathic behavior. > I can store immense data in the cloud freeing the end user's machine from any such junk, aside from maybe a cookie, and stream it on demand. The user also has to trust that you will handle their data sanely (and not "monetize" - including using or selling the analytics of their usage patterns). They have to trust that you will not betray them and hold their data for ransom. They have to deal with the fact that you will hand over any of their data in bulk when the government shows up with a national security letter. They have to trust that you are competent at programming and have not stored passwords or allowed their data to be stolen. The trade off being made by storing data remotely is huge, stop pretending it doesn't exist. > Navigate to URL And when internet access isn't available? Don't believe for a second that this isn't a problem. The reasons why are far too numerous to list; it would require a lot of wilful ignorance to pretend otherwise. > Why should someone have to install anything Because they like to actually use all of the features a native app can provide? Because they don't want to risk their data with an external service? Because they don't want to depend on the availability and whims of an external service? Because they are tired of the lies and doublespeak the computer industry has been saying about "the cloud"?[2] [1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.en.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-se... [2] https://projectbullrun.org/surveillance/2015/video-2015.html#balkan https://projectbullrun.org/surveillance/2015/video-2015.html...
- NeutronBoy 11y ago
  All of those problems? Users don't know, don't understand, or don't care. Native? Regular users don't care if an app is native or not - they just want a well designed app that works across their laptop and tablet. Updates? That's probably one they do care about - they want it to happen without being interrupted. SaaS? Users don't care - value for them is about 'it just works', not some philosophical debate about if they only have a limited use license for the music they stream on Spotify. If Spotify shuts down, they'll move to the next service. Cloud storage? Users want their stuff to be accessible from their phone, tablet, and laptop. We need to educate them about risks with that, and put transparent controls in place to help them. Installing apps? Users don't care - just make being able to use an app easy. Website, app store, whatever. As a developer, it's your (our) responsibility to help the user figure out where it matters in terms of getting the outcome the users want. Hide the shit they don't care about, educate them in language and terms they understand about the things that do matter, and don't annoy them with inconsequential stuff.
  - immibis 11y ago
    For how many apps do users want it to work on their laptop and tablet? Personally, if it works well on tablets only, I'd just get out my tablet when I want to use it. It's not like I'm tied to using particular devices in particular locations.

pholmq 11y ago

Best comment so far! The web is a multi platform client-server application environment. Sanboxed so that unsecure (javascript) code can be downloaded and executed at runtime. THIS is the killer feature of the web. No other app environment has this and Web and JS will eat native apps in the long run because of it.

pdkl95 11y ago

> I can do better than native. No, you can't. Not even close. Just because you only ever use a subset of what can be done in a native application doesn't mean the rest of us don't. Also, which "native"? Win32 != OSX != X11 != mobile != ... > I can update web apps without troubling the end user, Which makes you the source of one of the most common types of user frustration: apps that change without their authorization, sometimes breaking important things that used to work just fine. > ... processing ... done on my servers ... Ahh, so you just want to lock people in using Service as a Software Substitute[1]. Trying to do an end-run around "1st sale" rights to insert yourself as a middleman where none was needed previously is terrible, sociopathic behavior. > I can store immense data in the cloud freeing the end user's machine from any such junk, aside from maybe a cookie, and stream it on demand. The user also has to trust that you will handle their data sanely (and not "monetize" - including using or selling the analytics of their usage patterns). They have to trust that you will not betray them and hold their data for ransom. They have to deal with the fact that you will hand over any of their data in bulk when the government shows up with a national security letter. They have to trust that you are competent at programming and have not stored passwords or allowed their data to be stolen. The trade off being made by storing data remotely is huge, stop pretending it doesn't exist. > Navigate to URL And when internet access isn't available? Don't believe for a second that this isn't a problem. The reasons why are far too numerous to list; it would require a lot of wilful ignorance to pretend otherwise. > Why should someone have to install anything Because they like to actually use all of the features a native app can provide? Because they don't want to risk their data with an external service? Because they don't want to depend on the availability and whims of an external service? Because they are tired of the lies and doublespeak the computer industry has been saying about "the cloud"?[2] [1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.en.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-se... [2] https://projectbullrun.org/surveillance/2015/video-2015.html#balkan https://projectbullrun.org/surveillance/2015/video-2015.html...

NeutronBoy 11y ago
All of those problems? Users don't know, don't understand, or don't care. Native? Regular users don't care if an app is native or not - they just want a well designed app that works across their laptop and tablet. Updates? That's probably one they do care about - they want it to happen without being interrupted. SaaS? Users don't care - value for them is about 'it just works', not some philosophical debate about if they only have a limited use license for the music they stream on Spotify. If Spotify shuts down, they'll move to the next service. Cloud storage? Users want their stuff to be accessible from their phone, tablet, and laptop. We need to educate them about risks with that, and put transparent controls in place to help them. Installing apps? Users don't care - just make being able to use an app easy. Website, app store, whatever. As a developer, it's your (our) responsibility to help the user figure out where it matters in terms of getting the outcome the users want. Hide the shit they don't care about, educate them in language and terms they understand about the things that do matter, and don't annoy them with inconsequential stuff.
- immibis 11y ago
  For how many apps do users want it to work on their laptop and tablet? Personally, if it works well on tablets only, I'd just get out my tablet when I want to use it. It's not like I'm tied to using particular devices in particular locations.