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That's right. Petitions are just pleas to the king. Except that there is no king here. There is an oligarchy. This is what a republic is. In a real democracy (s

That's right. Petitions are just pleas to the king. Except that there is no king here. There is an oligarchy. This is what a republic is. In a real democracy (such as ancient athens) the citizens get to vote the laws directly and public officials are held accountable for their actions.

toyg 11y ago
I'll just refer to one of my comments from 3 years ago, because this "democracy vs republic" thing is one of my pet-hate American myths. "This split between "democracy" and "constitutional republic" is something being pushed more and more, but it's really a fantasy peddled by some US-based politicos with vested interests in devaluing the concept of democracy and making you accept the fact that you should be happy without it. A "constitutional republic" is something defined by a set of laws with certain specific elements in common: having a constitution and being a republic (which is also quite a loose term, used to define "anything that is not a monarchy" -- Iran is also a constitutional republic, for example, albeit a theocratic one)." Whole comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3668684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3668684 See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8542546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8542546
- cjsthompson 11y ago
  When you've studied the roman republic and the athenian democracy it's obvious how the two systems are fundamentally different and have nothing to do with each other. And then you understand why early french and U.S. revolutionaries such as Madison were against democracy and wanted a republic because they knew that in the roman republic unlike in democratic athens, the wealthy ruled. The only one spreading myths here is you.
IgorPartola 11y ago
So let me get this straight. You want the same people who voted for Palin and are saying yes to a Trump president in the polls to decide policy? The thing is that as awful as our current congress is, at least it's their job and responsibility to come up with policy and vote on it. In severe cases you can call them out on it and they can face certain consequences. If voting on policy was to be done by the masses you'd have the same uninformed people who can't tell a presidential candidate from an angry potato deciding how much fish is legal to pull out of a specific fishing region. Someone recently pointed out that California is as close to a direct democracy as we get in the US and look at what it's doing there: "Raise taxes? Nope! Fund schools: Yup!" People end up making decisions that benefit them in the short term while ignoring the global consequences. That's human nature and direct democracy assumes that everyone is an informed rational thinker.
- cjsthompson 11y ago
  No. I want you to pull your head out of your ass and realize that if elections ever changed anything they'd be outlawed. The game is rigged from the start. Switzerland is a semi democracy. In Switzerland, People are allowed to organize a vote to reject laws and to enact laws. And there's nothing public officials can do about it. They are powerless against popular vote. The only thing the oligarchs can do in Switzerland is to manipulate opinion through the media. In certain Swiss cantons, common people gather four times a year on the canton's capital town square and vote laws by raising their hand. It seems like the "masses of uninformed people" in Switzerland are doing a better job than your mafioso leaders of whatever stripe because Switzerland has a much higher standard of living than the U.S. and incidentally has never waged war on anyone even having no oil reserves at all. Note also that democracy in Athens lasted for two centuries, which is longer than any of the today's republics and was one of the most powerful city-state of the time. So much for "direct democracy" not working. So now, please, don't bother with the usual parroting of platitudes (such as "human nature") and go educate yourself.

toyg 11y ago

I'll just refer to one of my comments from 3 years ago, because this "democracy vs republic" thing is one of my pet-hate American myths. "This split between "democracy" and "constitutional republic" is something being pushed more and more, but it's really a fantasy peddled by some US-based politicos with vested interests in devaluing the concept of democracy and making you accept the fact that you should be happy without it. A "constitutional republic" is something defined by a set of laws with certain specific elements in common: having a constitution and being a republic (which is also quite a loose term, used to define "anything that is not a monarchy" -- Iran is also a constitutional republic, for example, albeit a theocratic one)." Whole comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3668684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3668684 See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8542546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8542546

cjsthompson 11y ago
When you've studied the roman republic and the athenian democracy it's obvious how the two systems are fundamentally different and have nothing to do with each other. And then you understand why early french and U.S. revolutionaries such as Madison were against democracy and wanted a republic because they knew that in the roman republic unlike in democratic athens, the wealthy ruled. The only one spreading myths here is you.

IgorPartola 11y ago

So let me get this straight. You want the same people who voted for Palin and are saying yes to a Trump president in the polls to decide policy? The thing is that as awful as our current congress is, at least it's their job and responsibility to come up with policy and vote on it. In severe cases you can call them out on it and they can face certain consequences. If voting on policy was to be done by the masses you'd have the same uninformed people who can't tell a presidential candidate from an angry potato deciding how much fish is legal to pull out of a specific fishing region. Someone recently pointed out that California is as close to a direct democracy as we get in the US and look at what it's doing there: "Raise taxes? Nope! Fund schools: Yup!" People end up making decisions that benefit them in the short term while ignoring the global consequences. That's human nature and direct democracy assumes that everyone is an informed rational thinker.

cjsthompson 11y ago
No. I want you to pull your head out of your ass and realize that if elections ever changed anything they'd be outlawed. The game is rigged from the start. Switzerland is a semi democracy. In Switzerland, People are allowed to organize a vote to reject laws and to enact laws. And there's nothing public officials can do about it. They are powerless against popular vote. The only thing the oligarchs can do in Switzerland is to manipulate opinion through the media. In certain Swiss cantons, common people gather four times a year on the canton's capital town square and vote laws by raising their hand. It seems like the "masses of uninformed people" in Switzerland are doing a better job than your mafioso leaders of whatever stripe because Switzerland has a much higher standard of living than the U.S. and incidentally has never waged war on anyone even having no oil reserves at all. Note also that democracy in Athens lasted for two centuries, which is longer than any of the today's republics and was one of the most powerful city-state of the time. So much for "direct democracy" not working. So now, please, don't bother with the usual parroting of platitudes (such as "human nature") and go educate yourself.