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This is the biggest load of horseshit I've ever read. > Since taking office, President Obama has worked with Congress to secure appropriate reforms that balanc

by ionised 11y ago

This is the biggest load of horseshit I've ever read. > Since taking office, President Obama has worked with Congress to secure appropriate reforms that balance the protection of civil liberties with the ability of national security professionals to secure information vital to keep Americans safe. Yes of course he has. > Mr. Snowden's dangerous decision to steal and disclose classified information had severe consequences for the security of our country and the people who work day in and day out to protect it. Has it? Has it really? Where's the proof of this? > If he felt his actions were consistent with civil disobedience, then he should do what those who have taken issue with their own government do: Challenge it, speak out, engage in a constructive act of protest, and -- importantly -- accept the consequences of his actions. He should come home to the United States, and be judged by a jury of his peers -- not hide behind the cover of an authoritarian regime. Right now, he's running away from the consequences of his actions. He tried the official route a number of times and was readily ignored, remember? Given that the NSA's actions were deemed unlawful, his actions were in the public interest and he deserves protections as a whistleblower. However the people aren't fucking stupid. We know all he will face if he returns home is life in prison. At best. > We live in a dangerous world. We continue to face grave security threats like terrorism, cyber-attacks, and nuclear proliferation that our intelligence community must have all the lawful tools it needs to address. Hmm yes. All those civil libereties groups, charities, foreign businesses and allied politicians you spied on sure are dangerous. Got to keep them in check lest they attack America with their ball-point pens! My translation of this entire response; "We have heard your voices and grievances and honestly couldn't give two shits about what you think. You have no power here."

teekert 11y ago
> Mr. Snowden's dangerous decision to steal and disclose classified information had severe consequences for the security of our country and the people who work day in and day out to protect it. As you say, where is the prove and also: He did not disclose the documents, respected journalistic institutions did. He did not just leak anything and everything. He did the right thing. This response is an insult to everybody who signed the petition.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > He did not disclose the documents, respected journalistic institutions did. How did the "respected journalistic institutions" get them if Snowden didn't disclose them once he had gotten them?
  - teekert 11y ago
    I'd say the "dangers to public safety" are in the disclosing-to-the-public part of the transactions. Snowden did not do that as he recognized he should not be the judge on that. Journalists are as important as Politicians and Judges (or in the US: Juries) in keeping things aligned with "common interest" (for as far as such a thing exists.)
toyg 11y ago
> "We have heard your voices and grievances and honestly couldn't give two shits about what you think. You have no power here." Isn't that the answer to all petitions? Petitions are just pleas to the king. It is in the king's prerogatives to ignore them. What you need in a democratic society is not petitions, but acts of parliament.
- cjsthompson 11y ago
  That's right. Petitions are just pleas to the king. Except that there is no king here. There is an oligarchy. This is what a republic is. In a real democracy (such as ancient athens) the citizens get to vote the laws directly and public officials are held accountable for their actions.
  - toyg 11y ago
    I'll just refer to one of my comments from 3 years ago, because this "democracy vs republic" thing is one of my pet-hate American myths. "This split between "democracy" and "constitutional republic" is something being pushed more and more, but it's really a fantasy peddled by some US-based politicos with vested interests in devaluing the concept of democracy and making you accept the fact that you should be happy without it. A "constitutional republic" is something defined by a set of laws with certain specific elements in common: having a constitution and being a republic (which is also quite a loose term, used to define "anything that is not a monarchy" -- Iran is also a constitutional republic, for example, albeit a theocratic one)." Whole comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3668684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3668684 See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8542546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8542546
    - cjsthompson 11y ago
      When you've studied the roman republic and the athenian democracy it's obvious how the two systems are fundamentally different and have nothing to do with each other. And then you understand why early french and U.S. revolutionaries such as Madison were against democracy and wanted a republic because they knew that in the roman republic unlike in democratic athens, the wealthy ruled. The only one spreading myths here is you.
elheffe80 11y ago
> > Mr. Snowden's dangerous decision to steal and disclose classified information had severe consequences for the security of our country and the people who work day in and day out to protect it. > Has it? Has it really? Where's the proof of this? While not a general decline in the companies values, or stock, there has been an international backlash against US Tech companies[1, 2]. To say that these companies don't provide for the security, financially, of our country is a crock of shit. As for how the people that protect our country and work day in and day out to protect it being affected- you really thing the CIA is going to post about how their personnel got caught, or detained, or anything at all? No. You won't. Granted, a lack of proof is not proof itself, but open your eyes a bit and think about it. Snowden revealed all sorts of information that he should not have. > Hmm yes. All those civil libereties groups, charities, foreign businesses and allied politicians you spied on sure are dangerous. Got to keep them in check lest they attack America with their ball-point pens! Keep your enemies close and your friends closer. Everything but the allies I agree with you on, but I don't think there is anything wrong with keeping tabs on the policies of allied countries. 1- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/24/edward-snowden-tech-industry_n_4596162.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/24/edward-snowden-tech... 2- http://allthingsd.com/20131214/shareholder-suit-accuses-ibm-of-concealing-an-anti-snowden-backlash-in-china/ http://allthingsd.com/20131214/shareholder-suit-accuses-ibm-...

by ionised 11y ago

teekert 11y ago

> Mr. Snowden's dangerous decision to steal and disclose classified information had severe consequences for the security of our country and the people who work day in and day out to protect it. As you say, where is the prove and also: He did not disclose the documents, respected journalistic institutions did. He did not just leak anything and everything. He did the right thing. This response is an insult to everybody who signed the petition.

dragonwriter 11y ago
> He did not disclose the documents, respected journalistic institutions did. How did the "respected journalistic institutions" get them if Snowden didn't disclose them once he had gotten them?
- teekert 11y ago
  I'd say the "dangers to public safety" are in the disclosing-to-the-public part of the transactions. Snowden did not do that as he recognized he should not be the judge on that. Journalists are as important as Politicians and Judges (or in the US: Juries) in keeping things aligned with "common interest" (for as far as such a thing exists.)

toyg 11y ago

> "We have heard your voices and grievances and honestly couldn't give two shits about what you think. You have no power here." Isn't that the answer to all petitions? Petitions are just pleas to the king. It is in the king's prerogatives to ignore them. What you need in a democratic society is not petitions, but acts of parliament.

cjsthompson 11y ago
That's right. Petitions are just pleas to the king. Except that there is no king here. There is an oligarchy. This is what a republic is. In a real democracy (such as ancient athens) the citizens get to vote the laws directly and public officials are held accountable for their actions.
- toyg 11y ago
  I'll just refer to one of my comments from 3 years ago, because this "democracy vs republic" thing is one of my pet-hate American myths. "This split between "democracy" and "constitutional republic" is something being pushed more and more, but it's really a fantasy peddled by some US-based politicos with vested interests in devaluing the concept of democracy and making you accept the fact that you should be happy without it. A "constitutional republic" is something defined by a set of laws with certain specific elements in common: having a constitution and being a republic (which is also quite a loose term, used to define "anything that is not a monarchy" -- Iran is also a constitutional republic, for example, albeit a theocratic one)." Whole comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3668684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3668684 See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8542546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8542546
  - cjsthompson 11y ago
    When you've studied the roman republic and the athenian democracy it's obvious how the two systems are fundamentally different and have nothing to do with each other. And then you understand why early french and U.S. revolutionaries such as Madison were against democracy and wanted a republic because they knew that in the roman republic unlike in democratic athens, the wealthy ruled. The only one spreading myths here is you.

elheffe80 11y ago

> > Mr. Snowden's dangerous decision to steal and disclose classified information had severe consequences for the security of our country and the people who work day in and day out to protect it. > Has it? Has it really? Where's the proof of this? While not a general decline in the companies values, or stock, there has been an international backlash against US Tech companies[1, 2]. To say that these companies don't provide for the security, financially, of our country is a crock of shit. As for how the people that protect our country and work day in and day out to protect it being affected- you really thing the CIA is going to post about how their personnel got caught, or detained, or anything at all? No. You won't. Granted, a lack of proof is not proof itself, but open your eyes a bit and think about it. Snowden revealed all sorts of information that he should not have. > Hmm yes. All those civil libereties groups, charities, foreign businesses and allied politicians you spied on sure are dangerous. Got to keep them in check lest they attack America with their ball-point pens! Keep your enemies close and your friends closer. Everything but the allies I agree with you on, but I don't think there is anything wrong with keeping tabs on the policies of allied countries. 1- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/24/edward-snowden-tech-industry_n_4596162.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/24/edward-snowden-tech... 2- http://allthingsd.com/20131214/shareholder-suit-accuses-ibm-of-concealing-an-anti-snowden-backlash-in-china/ http://allthingsd.com/20131214/shareholder-suit-accuses-ibm-...