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How much weight would anyone here give to the "Started programming at university" criterion? It's one that is bugging me slightly because 1) it applies to me a

by rw140 17y ago

How much weight would anyone here give to the "Started programming at university" criterion? It's one that is bugging me slightly because 1) it applies to me and 2) it's not something I can go back and change.

nickelplate 17y ago
I know a lot of good programmers who started in university. Not everyone discovers their passion when they're young, or has the opportunity to pursue that passion (in the third world, starting young may mean starting in university). Some of the skills that help you "code smarter" are not necessarily learned in front of a keyboard (math, English, etc.).
gridspy 17y ago
Why did you wait until Uni to learn to program? Is that the point when you finally realised you had the freedom to do what you wanted in life? - If so, perhaps you are alright. Is that when someone told you that you needed a job, and programming looked well paid? - Perhaps not so good.
- richieb 17y ago
  "Why did you wait until Uni to learn to program?" Because at that time computers took entire floor of building and costs millions of dollars. By the time I got my hands on Apple II I was in graduate school...
azanar 17y ago
Honestly, it would serve more to guide my questions than it would to just flat dismiss someone as untalented or apathetic. Curiosity and genuine interest develop at different times for different people depending on the circumstances of their life. They might have not discovered programming until later in their life, or they may have been soured by an bad experience early on and only came back later on. For some people, they don't discover programming until university, but then find the absolutely love it and quickly develop a considerable talent. For these people, who do exist, the pre-university test is a false negative. A lot of these tests people come up with are based on the concept that past performance indicates future potential. The thing about these tests is that they suck really bad, except that for certain things there are no other tests. A meteorologist I once heard talking about weather phenomena in Alaska joked in his talk about how there are two possibilites for available weather data there: data sparse, or data void. It is much the same in finding good programmers. There are a lot of important considerations, and getting a feel on each depends on sparse data at best. The best advice I can offer is don't take things like this too personally. Following advice from pg almost certainly applies to applying and interviewing for jobs as well. Don't be put off if they say no. Rejection is almost always less personal than the rejectee imagines. Just move on to the next. (This applies to dating too.) - Paul Graham, Undergraduation. Just take it as a sign that they probably would be judging you even after you are hired in ways that you might find unreasonable. Not every hacker is meant for every programming job.
j_baker 17y ago
As with all things, it's about weighing the pros and cons. What you cite certainly is a negative, but you have to evaluate the whole candidate. I don't think that it's fair to expect that all good programmers meet all of the criteria presented.

by rw140 17y ago

nickelplate 17y ago

I know a lot of good programmers who started in university. Not everyone discovers their passion when they're young, or has the opportunity to pursue that passion (in the third world, starting young may mean starting in university). Some of the skills that help you "code smarter" are not necessarily learned in front of a keyboard (math, English, etc.).

gridspy 17y ago

Why did you wait until Uni to learn to program? Is that the point when you finally realised you had the freedom to do what you wanted in life? - If so, perhaps you are alright. Is that when someone told you that you needed a job, and programming looked well paid? - Perhaps not so good.

richieb 17y ago
"Why did you wait until Uni to learn to program?" Because at that time computers took entire floor of building and costs millions of dollars. By the time I got my hands on Apple II I was in graduate school...

azanar 17y ago

Honestly, it would serve more to guide my questions than it would to just flat dismiss someone as untalented or apathetic. Curiosity and genuine interest develop at different times for different people depending on the circumstances of their life. They might have not discovered programming until later in their life, or they may have been soured by an bad experience early on and only came back later on. For some people, they don't discover programming until university, but then find the absolutely love it and quickly develop a considerable talent. For these people, who do exist, the pre-university test is a false negative. A lot of these tests people come up with are based on the concept that past performance indicates future potential. The thing about these tests is that they suck really bad, except that for certain things there are no other tests. A meteorologist I once heard talking about weather phenomena in Alaska joked in his talk about how there are two possibilites for available weather data there: data sparse, or data void. It is much the same in finding good programmers. There are a lot of important considerations, and getting a feel on each depends on sparse data at best. The best advice I can offer is don't take things like this too personally. Following advice from pg almost certainly applies to applying and interviewing for jobs as well. Don't be put off if they say no. Rejection is almost always less personal than the rejectee imagines. Just move on to the next. (This applies to dating too.) - Paul Graham, Undergraduation. Just take it as a sign that they probably would be judging you even after you are hired in ways that you might find unreasonable. Not every hacker is meant for every programming job.

j_baker 17y ago

As with all things, it's about weighing the pros and cons. What you cite certainly is a negative, but you have to evaluate the whole candidate. I don't think that it's fair to expect that all good programmers meet all of the criteria presented.