4 ms·

> we still have basically no understanding of what [light] actually is. Finding the true nature and, whether it exists or not, is the domain of philosophy. Sc

by avian 11y ago

> we still have basically no understanding of what [light] actually is. Finding the true nature and, whether it exists or not, is the domain of philosophy. Science builds models. And we do have at this point extremely good models of electromagnetism which can correctly predict results of all experiments done so far. Whether these models reveal some fundamental truth or not is a matter of opinion (or perhaps religion). It has nothing to do with refining the models or finding experiments that might prove them wrong.

nickff 11y ago
I think you misunderstand my point. Model-building is only one aspect of science, and happens to be the most prevalent in some (though not all) of today's mathematical and statistical based studies of physics (which are often criticized as an exercise in curve-fitting). One example is how string theorists are making a valiant (though perhaps errant) effort to understand matter; they are not simply modelling well characterized behaviors. There are many physicists and other scientists who are continually trying to understand their subject matter (pun intentional) at a deeper level, such as those who discovered and described DNA. I am not interested in whether these scientists reveal "some fundamental truth or not", but we cannot say that we understand all there is to know about electromagnetic phenomena because we can make a few simple predictions. It would be tantamount to saying that we understand the sun because we know where it is relative to us, and how bright it is, and can predict both of these parameters for a while. Understanding that it is a star, how it was formed, how it will cease to be, that it is made up of a number of elements, and converts large amounts of matter to energy are all very important discoveries, and we must continue to seek this kind of advance in the frontiers of our understanding in electromagnetic phenomena, matter, gravity, and many other areas.
- thaumaturgy 11y ago
  So, I originally argued the point that progress in the physical sciences generally doesn't involve utterly canceling out previous discoveries. The link to Asimov's article elsethread illustrates this better than I could hope to. Relativity for instance did not find that Newtonian mechanics was wrong, it simply revised it under pathological cases. The Bohr model of the atom isn't completely wrong, and it's still useful in chemistry, it's just that as physicists have learned more they've found details where it's not completely right either. This kind of constant revision is a theme throughout the history of scientific progress. So that leaves me a little bit stumped at what point you're trying to make here. Are you disagreeing with that view of science? Are you trying to say, "well, that's how it's been for hundreds of years, but at some point in the future I believe we'll all discover that physics is completely and utterly and embarrassingly wrong in every way"? I've gone back and reread your reply to me at least half a dozen times. You seem to be disagreeing with me, but none of the examples you brought up really actually disagreed with me. At best, I chose some poor metaphors and that led you to misunderstand me, but then I still can't figure out what it is that you're actually trying to say.
- avian 11y ago
  I guess you can say that ariving at Maxwell equations or QED is an exercise in curve-fitting in some sense. In the end, it is the simplest set of rules that matches a set of observations. Similarly, the current model of the sun is the simplest model that explains some observations (neutrino flux, the fact that some stars seem similar spectroscopically, our knowledge from other branches of science, etc.). I see no fundamental difference between these two.
- Analog24 11y ago
  "we cannot say that we understand all there is to know about electromagnetic phenomena because we can make a few simple predictions" This is quite an understatement. QED, which is the underlying theory of EM, is the most accurate scientific theory ever. Full stop. It's theoretical predictions match experimentally measured observables out to ten decimal places. By your standards we don't really understand any physical phenomena. To bring up your analogy with the sun: our understanding of QED is like saying that we know the exact chemical composition of the sun to an accuracy of one part in ten billion. I think we would be justified in stating that we understand the sun in those circumstances. On a related note, QED does provide a lot of context for what "light"(photons) is(are). It's the gauge boson (read: mediating particle) of the electromagnetic force. In my mind it doesn't get much more elegant than that.

by avian 11y ago

nickff 11y ago

I think you misunderstand my point. Model-building is only one aspect of science, and happens to be the most prevalent in some (though not all) of today's mathematical and statistical based studies of physics (which are often criticized as an exercise in curve-fitting). One example is how string theorists are making a valiant (though perhaps errant) effort to understand matter; they are not simply modelling well characterized behaviors. There are many physicists and other scientists who are continually trying to understand their subject matter (pun intentional) at a deeper level, such as those who discovered and described DNA. I am not interested in whether these scientists reveal "some fundamental truth or not", but we cannot say that we understand all there is to know about electromagnetic phenomena because we can make a few simple predictions. It would be tantamount to saying that we understand the sun because we know where it is relative to us, and how bright it is, and can predict both of these parameters for a while. Understanding that it is a star, how it was formed, how it will cease to be, that it is made up of a number of elements, and converts large amounts of matter to energy are all very important discoveries, and we must continue to seek this kind of advance in the frontiers of our understanding in electromagnetic phenomena, matter, gravity, and many other areas.

thaumaturgy 11y ago
So, I originally argued the point that progress in the physical sciences generally doesn't involve utterly canceling out previous discoveries. The link to Asimov's article elsethread illustrates this better than I could hope to. Relativity for instance did not find that Newtonian mechanics was wrong, it simply revised it under pathological cases. The Bohr model of the atom isn't completely wrong, and it's still useful in chemistry, it's just that as physicists have learned more they've found details where it's not completely right either. This kind of constant revision is a theme throughout the history of scientific progress. So that leaves me a little bit stumped at what point you're trying to make here. Are you disagreeing with that view of science? Are you trying to say, "well, that's how it's been for hundreds of years, but at some point in the future I believe we'll all discover that physics is completely and utterly and embarrassingly wrong in every way"? I've gone back and reread your reply to me at least half a dozen times. You seem to be disagreeing with me, but none of the examples you brought up really actually disagreed with me. At best, I chose some poor metaphors and that led you to misunderstand me, but then I still can't figure out what it is that you're actually trying to say.
avian 11y ago
I guess you can say that ariving at Maxwell equations or QED is an exercise in curve-fitting in some sense. In the end, it is the simplest set of rules that matches a set of observations. Similarly, the current model of the sun is the simplest model that explains some observations (neutrino flux, the fact that some stars seem similar spectroscopically, our knowledge from other branches of science, etc.). I see no fundamental difference between these two.
Analog24 11y ago
"we cannot say that we understand all there is to know about electromagnetic phenomena because we can make a few simple predictions" This is quite an understatement. QED, which is the underlying theory of EM, is the most accurate scientific theory ever. Full stop. It's theoretical predictions match experimentally measured observables out to ten decimal places. By your standards we don't really understand any physical phenomena. To bring up your analogy with the sun: our understanding of QED is like saying that we know the exact chemical composition of the sun to an accuracy of one part in ten billion. I think we would be justified in stating that we understand the sun in those circumstances. On a related note, QED does provide a lot of context for what "light"(photons) is(are). It's the gauge boson (read: mediating particle) of the electromagnetic force. In my mind it doesn't get much more elegant than that.