6 ms·

We really need a non-profit organization that provides a data store with an api for common things like classified listings, sms messages, pictures, likes, etc.

by x5n1 11y ago

We really need a non-profit organization that provides a data store with an api for common things like classified listings, sms messages, pictures, likes, etc. That can help us move away from this sort of chicken and egg problem with user generated data. These companies are basically hogging it because they were able to build the user base. If we can get the data in a non-profit store with a licensing scheme that basically says you must as a part of using this data add any user-generated data submitted to your website back to this store so other developers can build products on top of it, we could really innovate in classifieds and social networks. Perhaps something like that can be funded by EFF or related organization... because then we can potentially apply governance to that user generated data which has not been possible with private companies. The chicken and egg problem can be solved if big non-profit tech and civil rights brands like the ACLU, EFF, Wikipedia, etc. all get behind this and market it.

BallinBige 11y ago
sez it all: 'because they were able to build the user base....'
- x5n1 11y ago
  there is more than one way to skin a cat, just because they were able to do it... say like encyclopedia Britannica, doesn't mean wikipedia can't come along and say f-u.
  - BallinBige 11y ago
    who's stopping someone from doing that then? im with you.
  - j_lev 11y ago
    Did Wikipedia upload all the entries of Encyclopedia Britannica? I wasn't aware.
    - cariaso 11y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Encyclopaedia_Britannica#The_history_of_adaptation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Encyclop... Yes. The 1911 Britannica was used to populate many wikipedia articles.
      - rue 11y ago
        Public domain (if it isn’t obvious from the year), which is a far cry from content that has been just produced or aggregated.
blatherard 11y ago
At least in the US, I think satisfying the 'purposes' requirement for non-profit status would be difficult. Just providing a free service isn't enough. Here's the IRS brief description: "The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals. source: http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Exempt-Purposes-Internal-Revenue-Code-Section-501(c)(3) http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organi... UPDATE: I confused non-profit and charitable organizations. Disregard.
- x5n1 11y ago
  Welcome to my new religion... All user content welcome! Seriously though, it does not have to be non-profit. It can be for-profit. Just as long as the cause is served.
- ObviousScience 11y ago
  You can file as a not-for-profit social purposes organization (to incorporate at the state level) without electing to take on IRS non-profit status -- you just need to pay taxes still.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  You seem to confusing non-profit status with charitable (501c3) status; a charity is a specific subtype of tax-exempt nonprofit (most notably different from most other nonprofits in that, in addition to the organization being tax-exempt, contributions to the organization are tax-deductible for the donors.)
- EvanAnderson 11y ago
  I wonder about the viability of a 501(c)(6) trade association providing data storage service to dues-paying member companies.
striking 11y ago
> non-profit Yeah, no. Unless this is done as an institution like Telegram is (it's made by the VK guy, and he's not charging for any part of it) or it's paid for by tax dollars (and then it would only work for some inhabitants of our planet), nothing will happen. Also, that licensing scheme idea is nifty, but it creates a chicken-and-egg problem. I don't think a single company wants to open its silo because of the advantage that it gets, and because they pay money to establish themselves socially (ads and whatnot), so allowing crappier competitors space on your platform makes you suck.
- x5n1 11y ago
  meh. not really religious about it being non-profit. and even then it can be non-profit somewhere other than the US. US is not the be all end all. the world is a big place.
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    For it to work, it really needs to be user-owned and controlled, otherwise you're just the next company-of-the-week.
    - x5n1 11y ago
      no it doesn't. the user delegates their rights to the non-profit which has a democratic governance model. in fact this argument of it being user owned and controlled has totally been proven unworkable. most users don't give a shit, hence it's irrelevant what they think or do. they rather delegate their rights to someone else and let them manage that.
      - jsprogrammer 11y ago
        Owned in the sense that it exists for the benefit of the user. Controlled in the sense that the user has influence over the platform.
      - briandear 11y ago
        All of this over apartment listings? These aren't cancer cures we're talking about, these are for profit listings to sell a product.
TTPrograms 11y ago
Put it on the blockchain! </half sarcasm>
- tomasien 11y ago
  Everytime I've ever just yelled "BLOCKCHAIN" as a suggested solution has been exactly half sarcastic. It's comical how often that comes up (in startup circles especially) but also so often has a somewhat plausible application.
  - noir_lord 11y ago
    "Thoughts on BLOCKCHAIN as an antipattern considered harmful" ;)
  - erikpukinskis 11y ago
    Just imagine what it will be like when we have a blockchain engineered for affordably storing megabytes of data. Fun times ahead.
aleem 11y ago
> These companies are basically hogging it because they were able to build the user base I am all for liberating data and letting startups drink out of the firehose but I have some cognitive dissonance from reading this news. I know that OLX spends tens of millions of dollars in India and nearby regions to solve the marketplace problem: get a critical mass of buyers and sellers to achieve escape velocity and enjoy growth through network effects[1]. So it's not just that these companies "happened" to build these user bases, they spent money and took early gambles. This could very well spell the beginning of the end for much of Craigslist's real estate listings (followed by other categories inevitably) unless they have some grand plan to overhaul their UI/UX entirely. Kijiji, OLX, Gumtree are also vulnerable. Maybe even Twitter since it has a habit of shutting down startups built around its feeds. What should one do if they are at the helm of CL or one of these other companies? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect
Erwin 11y ago
I was thinking about some kind of user-owned Database service to ensure the data is forever free. Imagine a discussion board run by any company where you authenticate with your external Bring-Your-Own-Data credentials. Through some SQL-like interface, that site is able to create tables and add data to the database but associating ownership of each piece of data with your identity. At any time you can revoke your permission for their access to this data, or share it with others. Any modification to that data is version controlled so a hostile site cannot just modify/delete the data you created on it -- you'd still be able to gain access to any old version. From a developer POV I think the key would be a SQL-like interface with appropriate caching/conflict resolution so you essentially just connect to a locally running proxy. Perhaps the advantage for the developer is some kind of tiered storage (e.g. your 100 GB database of posts is mostly stored in this external database with a 5% hot data cache local). From a user's POV, you know noone can take your data and hoard it. Transformation of the data from one service to another similar seems like it would be easier compared to hoping someone writes a good API for export/import. E.g. consider if you could write: INSERT INTO feedly.reader (SELECT feedname, feed_url FROM google.reader); to migrate YOUR data from Google Reader to Feedly -- not just in a 3-month sunset period while Reader shuts down, but forever and ever. If you want to be paranoid, the database could be federated, so rather than it being central, multiple providers can complete for your data. All this could certainly make compliance with the European data protection act easier.
- natrius 11y ago
  What you're describing is very similar to Ethereum, a platform for decentralized applications. Its blockchain is a public database for application data that all participants in a system need to agree on. Other data is either messaging to discussing parties, static data on a decentralized store, or private data on your own machine. Users of software built with this architecture enjoy unlimited uptime: the software is run by the user and a decentralized computer that only stops running when no one wants to use it anymore.

by x5n1 11y ago

BallinBige 11y ago

sez it all: 'because they were able to build the user base....'

x5n1 11y ago
there is more than one way to skin a cat, just because they were able to do it... say like encyclopedia Britannica, doesn't mean wikipedia can't come along and say f-u.
- BallinBige 11y ago
  who's stopping someone from doing that then? im with you.
- j_lev 11y ago
  Did Wikipedia upload all the entries of Encyclopedia Britannica? I wasn't aware.
  - cariaso 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Encyclopaedia_Britannica#The_history_of_adaptation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Encyclop... Yes. The 1911 Britannica was used to populate many wikipedia articles.
    - rue 11y ago
      Public domain (if it isn’t obvious from the year), which is a far cry from content that has been just produced or aggregated.

blatherard 11y ago

At least in the US, I think satisfying the 'purposes' requirement for non-profit status would be difficult. Just providing a free service isn't enough. Here's the IRS brief description: "The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals. source: http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Exempt-Purposes-Internal-Revenue-Code-Section-501(c)(3) http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organi... UPDATE: I confused non-profit and charitable organizations. Disregard.

x5n1 11y ago
Welcome to my new religion... All user content welcome! Seriously though, it does not have to be non-profit. It can be for-profit. Just as long as the cause is served.
ObviousScience 11y ago
You can file as a not-for-profit social purposes organization (to incorporate at the state level) without electing to take on IRS non-profit status -- you just need to pay taxes still.
dragonwriter 11y ago
You seem to confusing non-profit status with charitable (501c3) status; a charity is a specific subtype of tax-exempt nonprofit (most notably different from most other nonprofits in that, in addition to the organization being tax-exempt, contributions to the organization are tax-deductible for the donors.)
EvanAnderson 11y ago
I wonder about the viability of a 501(c)(6) trade association providing data storage service to dues-paying member companies.

striking 11y ago

> non-profit Yeah, no. Unless this is done as an institution like Telegram is (it's made by the VK guy, and he's not charging for any part of it) or it's paid for by tax dollars (and then it would only work for some inhabitants of our planet), nothing will happen. Also, that licensing scheme idea is nifty, but it creates a chicken-and-egg problem. I don't think a single company wants to open its silo because of the advantage that it gets, and because they pay money to establish themselves socially (ads and whatnot), so allowing crappier competitors space on your platform makes you suck.

x5n1 11y ago
meh. not really religious about it being non-profit. and even then it can be non-profit somewhere other than the US. US is not the be all end all. the world is a big place.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  For it to work, it really needs to be user-owned and controlled, otherwise you're just the next company-of-the-week.
  - x5n1 11y ago
    no it doesn't. the user delegates their rights to the non-profit which has a democratic governance model. in fact this argument of it being user owned and controlled has totally been proven unworkable. most users don't give a shit, hence it's irrelevant what they think or do. they rather delegate their rights to someone else and let them manage that.
    - jsprogrammer 11y ago
      Owned in the sense that it exists for the benefit of the user. Controlled in the sense that the user has influence over the platform.
    - briandear 11y ago
      All of this over apartment listings? These aren't cancer cures we're talking about, these are for profit listings to sell a product.

TTPrograms 11y ago

Put it on the blockchain! </half sarcasm>

tomasien 11y ago
Everytime I've ever just yelled "BLOCKCHAIN" as a suggested solution has been exactly half sarcastic. It's comical how often that comes up (in startup circles especially) but also so often has a somewhat plausible application.
- noir_lord 11y ago
  "Thoughts on BLOCKCHAIN as an antipattern considered harmful" ;)
- erikpukinskis 11y ago
  Just imagine what it will be like when we have a blockchain engineered for affordably storing megabytes of data. Fun times ahead.

aleem 11y ago

> These companies are basically hogging it because they were able to build the user base I am all for liberating data and letting startups drink out of the firehose but I have some cognitive dissonance from reading this news. I know that OLX spends tens of millions of dollars in India and nearby regions to solve the marketplace problem: get a critical mass of buyers and sellers to achieve escape velocity and enjoy growth through network effects[1]. So it's not just that these companies "happened" to build these user bases, they spent money and took early gambles. This could very well spell the beginning of the end for much of Craigslist's real estate listings (followed by other categories inevitably) unless they have some grand plan to overhaul their UI/UX entirely. Kijiji, OLX, Gumtree are also vulnerable. Maybe even Twitter since it has a habit of shutting down startups built around its feeds. What should one do if they are at the helm of CL or one of these other companies? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect

Erwin 11y ago

I was thinking about some kind of user-owned Database service to ensure the data is forever free. Imagine a discussion board run by any company where you authenticate with your external Bring-Your-Own-Data credentials. Through some SQL-like interface, that site is able to create tables and add data to the database but associating ownership of each piece of data with your identity. At any time you can revoke your permission for their access to this data, or share it with others. Any modification to that data is version controlled so a hostile site cannot just modify/delete the data you created on it -- you'd still be able to gain access to any old version. From a developer POV I think the key would be a SQL-like interface with appropriate caching/conflict resolution so you essentially just connect to a locally running proxy. Perhaps the advantage for the developer is some kind of tiered storage (e.g. your 100 GB database of posts is mostly stored in this external database with a 5% hot data cache local). From a user's POV, you know noone can take your data and hoard it. Transformation of the data from one service to another similar seems like it would be easier compared to hoping someone writes a good API for export/import. E.g. consider if you could write: INSERT INTO feedly.reader (SELECT feedname, feed_url FROM google.reader); to migrate YOUR data from Google Reader to Feedly -- not just in a 3-month sunset period while Reader shuts down, but forever and ever. If you want to be paranoid, the database could be federated, so rather than it being central, multiple providers can complete for your data. All this could certainly make compliance with the European data protection act easier.

natrius 11y ago
What you're describing is very similar to Ethereum, a platform for decentralized applications. Its blockchain is a public database for application data that all participants in a system need to agree on. Other data is either messaging to discussing parties, static data on a decentralized store, or private data on your own machine. Users of software built with this architecture enjoy unlimited uptime: the software is run by the user and a decentralized computer that only stops running when no one wants to use it anymore.