4 ms·

I don't think the amount of bullets used by the police in different places can be meaningfully compared without knowing the number of bullets fired at the polic

by _yosefk 11y ago

I don't think the amount of bullets used by the police in different places can be meaningfully compared without knowing the number of bullets fired at the police. Edit: a sister comment cites numbers according to which almost 8 times as many police officers are killed in the US than in Germany per capita. Of course the real question is how many are attacked; if the police is better at gunfights than the criminals it is not a cause for alarm, rather the opposite.

colechristensen 11y ago
Don't overlook the very likely strong coupling between the bullets fired 'at' and 'by' police and how it likely goes both ways. People want to shoot at police because police shoot at people so often is probably just as true as the converse. This is likely both true at the macro and micro level. That is, police behavior escalates individual situations into shootings which otherwise, with better training, could have ended peacefully. _And_ with the culture of police quick to use force, people are more inclined to acquire weapons and use them during criminal activity. Police positions on the usage and scale of force is a self-fulfilling prophecy. A violent, forceful police will create a violent, forceful criminal. Which side you believe has more to do with your internal bias. Do you believe that police are violent because criminals are or do you believe criminals are violent because police are? It's neither, though. It's a systematic problem with a systematic solution. Placing the blame isn't important, finding the solution is. You can do a little by trying to help people out of the situations where they're motivated to crime. You can do a lot by helping police nudge the outcome of interactions towards peaceful solutions. The media whipping everyone into a frenzy over every contentious interaction doesn't help anybody.
- shkkmo 11y ago
  > The media whipping everyone into a frenzy over every contentious interaction doesn't help anybody. But neither does ignoring the problem. I do wish we saw more responsible journalism on the topic, but apparently that doesn't generate the clicks...
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    Often not reporting on a problem would be exactly the right thing to do. This is a discussion we as a society are not having, and I believe we should. We had free mass media for long enough already to know that the general population can - and far too often does - go batshit insane thanks to news stories[0]. It's not enough that the reporting itself screws availability heuristic badly, the standard practice of journalism now consists of twisting the story (sometimes even outright lying) to maximize readers' outrage. And no, one can't say it's the responsibility of the reader to not be fooled; news-induced dysrationalia is systemic, it is predictable. Reminds me of a thing I read today, a reply on Quora about child soldiers posted by an ex-Marine[1]. Apparently, the primary military value of children is pissing off westerners. Military groups using them let journalists photograph kids with guns, maybe even some dead ones (doesn't really matter who killed them), and wait for the outraged civilians to push against their own countries' war efforts. [0] - why are we having this "War on Terror" again? [1] - http://www.quora.com/Why-do-Western-militaries-not-want-to-kill-child-soldiers http://www.quora.com/Why-do-Western-militaries-not-want-to-k...
- michaelt 11y ago
  People want to shoot at police because police shoot at people so often is probably just as true as the converse. Could you add some more detail on this point? I'm having difficulty thinking of a situation I could be in that would be improved by me shooting at the police? I mean, even if they're honest good guy cops surely they'll call in backup and arrest you and make a really enthusiastic effort to put you in jail for a long time? And that's the best case - if they're bad cops it can only be worse? Admittedly, my status as a british middle class white guy might mean I don't know what dealing with the police is like for other people.
  - elektromekatron 11y ago
    People don't think like that so much if someone close to them is dead.
  - Mithaldu 11y ago
    > make a really enthusiastic effort to put you in jail The point is that in the USA even for minor things people expect to be shot at more than anything else. If you're going to take a risk and do something really gainful, you take it for guaranteed that the cops will shoot at you and make a point to shoot first. Read up on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown
    - tzs 11y ago
      I'm unable to figure out what point you are trying to make with the link to the Brown shooting, unless you last read that page several months ago and are unaware of the new information that has been added since then.
  - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
    I'm not sure what he's getting at except maybe that penalties for some crimes are so severe here in the states as to incentivize escaping apprehension by any means necessary. I'm thinking about something like drug trafficking where you can go to prison for life. In general, though, I would agree with you that there can't be many situations in which your life would be improved if you shot at a police officer. By my observation any time someone does that it has the effect of enraging every cop in the land.
- mikeash 11y ago
  "Contentious interaction" is an interesting way to say "killing by police," some of which are outright murder.

by _yosefk 11y ago

colechristensen 11y ago

Don't overlook the very likely strong coupling between the bullets fired 'at' and 'by' police and how it likely goes both ways. People want to shoot at police because police shoot at people so often is probably just as true as the converse. This is likely both true at the macro and micro level. That is, police behavior escalates individual situations into shootings which otherwise, with better training, could have ended peacefully. _And_ with the culture of police quick to use force, people are more inclined to acquire weapons and use them during criminal activity. Police positions on the usage and scale of force is a self-fulfilling prophecy. A violent, forceful police will create a violent, forceful criminal. Which side you believe has more to do with your internal bias. Do you believe that police are violent because criminals are or do you believe criminals are violent because police are? It's neither, though. It's a systematic problem with a systematic solution. Placing the blame isn't important, finding the solution is. You can do a little by trying to help people out of the situations where they're motivated to crime. You can do a lot by helping police nudge the outcome of interactions towards peaceful solutions. The media whipping everyone into a frenzy over every contentious interaction doesn't help anybody.

shkkmo 11y ago
> The media whipping everyone into a frenzy over every contentious interaction doesn't help anybody. But neither does ignoring the problem. I do wish we saw more responsible journalism on the topic, but apparently that doesn't generate the clicks...
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Often not reporting on a problem would be exactly the right thing to do. This is a discussion we as a society are not having, and I believe we should. We had free mass media for long enough already to know that the general population can - and far too often does - go batshit insane thanks to news stories[0]. It's not enough that the reporting itself screws availability heuristic badly, the standard practice of journalism now consists of twisting the story (sometimes even outright lying) to maximize readers' outrage. And no, one can't say it's the responsibility of the reader to not be fooled; news-induced dysrationalia is systemic, it is predictable. Reminds me of a thing I read today, a reply on Quora about child soldiers posted by an ex-Marine[1]. Apparently, the primary military value of children is pissing off westerners. Military groups using them let journalists photograph kids with guns, maybe even some dead ones (doesn't really matter who killed them), and wait for the outraged civilians to push against their own countries' war efforts. [0] - why are we having this "War on Terror" again? [1] - http://www.quora.com/Why-do-Western-militaries-not-want-to-kill-child-soldiers http://www.quora.com/Why-do-Western-militaries-not-want-to-k...
michaelt 11y ago
People want to shoot at police because police shoot at people so often is probably just as true as the converse. Could you add some more detail on this point? I'm having difficulty thinking of a situation I could be in that would be improved by me shooting at the police? I mean, even if they're honest good guy cops surely they'll call in backup and arrest you and make a really enthusiastic effort to put you in jail for a long time? And that's the best case - if they're bad cops it can only be worse? Admittedly, my status as a british middle class white guy might mean I don't know what dealing with the police is like for other people.
- elektromekatron 11y ago
  People don't think like that so much if someone close to them is dead.
- Mithaldu 11y ago
  > make a really enthusiastic effort to put you in jail The point is that in the USA even for minor things people expect to be shot at more than anything else. If you're going to take a risk and do something really gainful, you take it for guaranteed that the cops will shoot at you and make a point to shoot first. Read up on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown
  - tzs 11y ago
    I'm unable to figure out what point you are trying to make with the link to the Brown shooting, unless you last read that page several months ago and are unaware of the new information that has been added since then.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  I'm not sure what he's getting at except maybe that penalties for some crimes are so severe here in the states as to incentivize escaping apprehension by any means necessary. I'm thinking about something like drug trafficking where you can go to prison for life. In general, though, I would agree with you that there can't be many situations in which your life would be improved if you shot at a police officer. By my observation any time someone does that it has the effect of enraging every cop in the land.
mikeash 11y ago
"Contentious interaction" is an interesting way to say "killing by police," some of which are outright murder.