5 ms·

I've lost all hope in the KDE project, they simply don't understand UI / UX design.

by RivieraKid 11y ago

emilsedgh 11y ago
Maybe contribute to it then? :) Disclaimer: I contribute to kde.
- RivieraKid 11y ago
  I've been actually thinking about creating a new desktop environment (or a whole desktop platform ala Android if I had more time). Because there's a lot of space for improvement and innovation on (not only) Linux desktop. But this is not the case for mobile IMHO. As for contributing to KDE, it's not as fun as starting a new project, things move slowly, you have limited options of what you can do and I just generally don't agree with the mentality / philosophy / culture of the KDE project.
  - emilsedgh 11y ago
    I just generally don't agree with the mentality / philosophy / culture of the KDE project. Mind if I ask what do you dislike about it? Or what is your perception of the mentality/culture?
    - RivieraKid 11y ago
      Hard to say, it's an instinctive feeling, but let's say that it's a culture of bloat. "Should we do this or that? I don't know, let's make it an option in the settings!" Also, they seem to lack design taste.
      - jbk 11y ago
        > Hard to say, it's an instinctive feeling, but let's say that it's a culture of bloat. So, in the end, you're just a troll. You have no facts, no knowledge, no reference but just your "feelings" about "bloat"; and you keep spitting on KDE's work. I'm quite sure you've not used KDE since a long time.
        RivieraKid 11y ago
        Troll is someone who deliberately tries to upset people, provoke a response, without really caring about the topic. You really think that's the motivation behind my comments? UX is all about feelings and intuition by the way. Designing user interfaces is mostly trying to make users feel good while they're using it.
      - emilsedgh 11y ago
        "Should we do this or that? I don't know, let's make it an option in the settings!" That's not how it happens. It happens like this: Person 1 creates something. Person 2 wants slightly different behavior and provides a patch to make it configurable. And you know what? Its not a bad thing. My KDE is heavily configured and you have no idea how productive it is for me. I love it :)
  - shadeslayer 11y ago
    > ... things move slowly ... Why do you think things move slowly? KDE releases Frameworks 5 every month, and Plasma 5 every 3 months, that's pretty fast in my opinion.
    - RivieraKid 11y ago
      Slowly compared to working on a new project from scratch. You can't change the deep, fundumantal things in a big project easily.
      - jbk 11y ago
        Great, so please show us your work on a project from scratch. You seem so good at criticizing and explaining that you'd do better. Please show us!
        RivieraKid 11y ago
        I designed and developed an app from scratch that users loved (4.9 avg rating, over 10k ratings) and that won a UX award. Not linking it to stay pseudonymous.
  - jbk 11y ago
    > I've been actually thinking about creating a new desktop environment Stop thinking and actually do and ship! You keep complaining and say you know better, then show us!
jlas 11y ago
It's good enough for the mostly tech-oriented users that interact with it though.
- RivieraKid 11y ago
  I've heard several years ago that their UI philosophy is to target advanced users. No problem with that specifically (although one could argue that you can target casual and advanced users at the same time without much compromises). But their implementation of this philosophy seems to be - "don't think whether it's a good idea to put this button here, just make it an option in the settings". Which is clearly wrong.
  - wz1000 11y ago
    > "don't think whether it's a good idea to put this button here, just make it an option in the settings". Which is clearly wrong. Why is that?
    - RivieraKid 11y ago
      Users don't want to design their user interface, it's not their job. This approach is like - here are some musical notes, compose the song that is perfect for you!
  - jbk 11y ago
    > I've heard several years ago that their UI philosophy is to target advanced users. Citation needed. From who? From where?
  - distances 11y ago
    I think you're in this discussion just trying to spread misery which I don't understand at all. KDE is definitely targeting all users, and their user experience philosophy is "Simple by Default, Powerful When Needed". The latest KDE iteration has advanced in this regard in leaps and bounds, which is evident also in the favourable reviews it's seen. Just google for "plasma 5.2 review".
chestnut-tree 11y ago
I think the main problem is that the open source model of software development doesn't really work when it comes to visual or interaction design. We've all heard that phrase 'design by commitee' but that's what you get when everyone wants a say in the way the UI works. I can understand why this happens even though the outcome is often an unfriendly UI. Imagine you're a developer who's spent time and effort contributing to an open source project. Naturally you'll have an opinion on the UX and what suits your preferences. Everyone else using or contributing will also have a strong opinion. The moment you try and delgate visual and interaction design to a small, dedicated team is the moment the whole project generates enormous resentment from the "community". Plus, any attempt to (sincerely) improve or simplify an interface will always be met at some point with the charge of "dumbing down". Open source and design have never had a good relationship. I wish it were otherwise, but I don't know how it could be made better.
- wz1000 11y ago
  What do you find 'unfriendly' about Plasma 5 and Breeze?
  - RivieraKid 11y ago
    I've left KDE a long time ago but looking at the current screenshots, I find it really ugly.
  - chestnut-tree 11y ago
    I was talking in general about Open Source and design not about Plasma. But since you ask, here are some small things I noticed in the video - Mismatched visual styles: when you tap the phone icon, you get a bar of three icons. Two are simple line icons (History and Contacts), the third is a detailed picture of a keyboard to denote keypad. A minor thing and easily fixed. - Interface inconsistencies: I noticed that a large red X is used for closing a screen (which I like over the sometimes unclear Back button behaviour you get in Android). But at 3:16 in the video the Wallpaper screen has a 'close' button (with X) and below that in the tab bar is the larger red X for closing too. So you have two close functions on the same screen. You see the same duplication on the date and Time screen at 3:41. By the way, I think the way Windows Phone lets you change date and time is much nicer. It's a similar spinner approach to Plasma but less cluttered. Here's a video of it in action: https://youtu.be/kIsWgCX7qtE?t=54s https://youtu.be/kIsWgCX7qtE?t=54s Also, the commands 'close', 'cancel' and 'delete' all tend to use the same X icon in many UIs so if there is no label for X, then it's meaning (and behaviour) should be consistent across the OS. - Weather app: there is a 'hamburger' menu on the left and another slimmer hamburger menu on the right. They feel too similar visually. Presumably, the right-hand menu is equivalent to the overflow menu you find on Android. But are two menus needed here? Could they not all sit in one menu? Obviously, this is a beta and these are relatively minor points. I can see some influence from Android, which is fine - there's no doubt that Google, Microsoft and Apple all study and are influenced by each others work. I just hope the OS stands up well as a unique UI rather than just a clone of bits from other OSes. Overall, it looks quite polished for a version 1.0 and I hope the project succeeds. I would love to see an open source project take the lead in design/UX over existing projects.
weirdtunguska 11y ago
Care to explain why for the non design folks?
- prawn 11y ago
  It looks very "Linux" from however long ago - that is, poor and inconsistent spacing, hodge-podge of icons (especially overcomplicated ones), frugal padding, etc. It's a common look for open source stuff. Doesn't really have and stick with a design language. For some people, that will seem really jarring and uncomfortable.
  - zanny 11y ago
    Go try modern Plasma (5.3, 5.4 in a few months) and only use the shell and its widgets. Those are what the VDG has made so far, there have been UI mockups for a lot of software from the file manager to software center that are leaps and bounds better than what are in place, but the manpower in general KDE is really lacking to keep up with the VDG's mockups to actually implement them.
tete 11y ago
What defines UI / UX design? I am not a KDE user (currently). Well I use it once in a while, but compared to Windows, Mac OS (old and new), Android and iOS, which I all have used the only two things I've seen working well, as in being easy to understand and still efficient to use are KDE and XFCE. Oh and Squeak/Pharo. Both Android and iOS are horrible when it comes to easy of use and know what you are doing in my opinion. Everyone using those systems ends up just using a bunch of patterns of clicking and swiping that they repeat every time, because they don't know which of the things they just did actually causes the effect they wanted. In my opinion UI/UX are huge research fields, which you can see when you look at how the paradigms and "dogmas" from two years ago are now known to be the exact opposite of what you want. I think the only reasons things appear easier these days is that people have been exposed to technical interfaces way longer and more intensely. I am not saying that things don't get better, but I think there are a lot of misunderstandings. Users just get used to certain systems after time. They adapt. They adapt to their CLI-based interface, their Macbook (they need too, else they'd have spent thousands of USD for nothing), to new versions of Windows and do KDE/Plasma. Show a completely new computer user (maybe generation 70+) various interfaces and they will learn each of them efficiently after a while. (yeah, I have done that with older people) I think the main thing stopping people from using KDE and having troubles with it is that it's not the common thing that one usually starts out with. It used to be and people were happy until KDE4, which was something new to learn again. This sounds way more defensive of KDE than I intend to. I am not a fan. I use it when I have to choose between Gnome/Unity or KDE (but would probably choose another option, if there is one), just because it feels way more intuitive and easier to use. I never managed to get along with Gnome, but I think that's all based on what I said above. If you are exposed to one thing you will probably stick to it. However, I am happy about every alternative coming up, because it means there is a chance for them improving status quo.
- macspoofing 11y ago
  >Both Android and iOS are horrible when it comes to easy of use and know what you are doing in my opinion. I'm going to disagree with you there. I've seen toddlers use the iPad. My 60 year old aunt who never 'got' Windows (even simple things like managing application windows, or figuring out where files go after being downloaded), figured out iPad in about a day.
wz1000 11y ago
I think the KDE Visual Design Group is doing a great job and that Breeze and Plasma 5 look great.
- distances 11y ago
  I have to agree. I think Plasma 5 delivers the best UI/UX available on Linux today, and in many ways exceeds what the Windows and OSX worlds have to offer. This was quite surprising since I wasn't a big fan of the KDE 4 user experience.
- sigmaml 11y ago
  I agree, and am pleasantly surprised by how well Breeze seems to adapt to a phone interface. I'm hopeful that Visual Design Group will have polished the UI/UX even better for the phone form factor, by the time the distribution becomes stable.
veeti 11y ago
Agreed. I used KDE for years, but I just couldn't stand the hideous interface anymore. GNOME 3 looks good and finally has all the functionality I need from a DE. I had high hopes for their new visual design effort, but in my opinion the new Plasma 5 theme looks like a really, really bad OS X Yosemite ripoff. (Which is ironic, since Yosemite came afterwards.)
- RivieraKid 11y ago
  What do you think about MATE or Gnome 2? I think it's still the best Linux desktop environment.

I've lost all hope in the KDE project, they simply don't understand UI / UX design.

emilsedgh 11y ago

Maybe contribute to it then? :) Disclaimer: I contribute to kde.

RivieraKid 11y ago
I've been actually thinking about creating a new desktop environment (or a whole desktop platform ala Android if I had more time). Because there's a lot of space for improvement and innovation on (not only) Linux desktop. But this is not the case for mobile IMHO. As for contributing to KDE, it's not as fun as starting a new project, things move slowly, you have limited options of what you can do and I just generally don't agree with the mentality / philosophy / culture of the KDE project.
- emilsedgh 11y ago
  I just generally don't agree with the mentality / philosophy / culture of the KDE project. Mind if I ask what do you dislike about it? Or what is your perception of the mentality/culture?
  - RivieraKid 11y ago
    Hard to say, it's an instinctive feeling, but let's say that it's a culture of bloat. "Should we do this or that? I don't know, let's make it an option in the settings!" Also, they seem to lack design taste.
    - jbk 11y ago
      > Hard to say, it's an instinctive feeling, but let's say that it's a culture of bloat. So, in the end, you're just a troll. You have no facts, no knowledge, no reference but just your "feelings" about "bloat"; and you keep spitting on KDE's work. I'm quite sure you've not used KDE since a long time.
      - RivieraKid 11y ago
        Troll is someone who deliberately tries to upset people, provoke a response, without really caring about the topic. You really think that's the motivation behind my comments? UX is all about feelings and intuition by the way. Designing user interfaces is mostly trying to make users feel good while they're using it.
    - emilsedgh 11y ago
      "Should we do this or that? I don't know, let's make it an option in the settings!" That's not how it happens. It happens like this: Person 1 creates something. Person 2 wants slightly different behavior and provides a patch to make it configurable. And you know what? Its not a bad thing. My KDE is heavily configured and you have no idea how productive it is for me. I love it :)
- shadeslayer 11y ago
  > ... things move slowly ... Why do you think things move slowly? KDE releases Frameworks 5 every month, and Plasma 5 every 3 months, that's pretty fast in my opinion.
  - RivieraKid 11y ago
    Slowly compared to working on a new project from scratch. You can't change the deep, fundumantal things in a big project easily.
    - jbk 11y ago
      Great, so please show us your work on a project from scratch. You seem so good at criticizing and explaining that you'd do better. Please show us!
      - RivieraKid 11y ago
        I designed and developed an app from scratch that users loved (4.9 avg rating, over 10k ratings) and that won a UX award. Not linking it to stay pseudonymous.
- jbk 11y ago
  > I've been actually thinking about creating a new desktop environment Stop thinking and actually do and ship! You keep complaining and say you know better, then show us!

jlas 11y ago

It's good enough for the mostly tech-oriented users that interact with it though.

RivieraKid 11y ago
I've heard several years ago that their UI philosophy is to target advanced users. No problem with that specifically (although one could argue that you can target casual and advanced users at the same time without much compromises). But their implementation of this philosophy seems to be - "don't think whether it's a good idea to put this button here, just make it an option in the settings". Which is clearly wrong.
- wz1000 11y ago
  > "don't think whether it's a good idea to put this button here, just make it an option in the settings". Which is clearly wrong. Why is that?
  - RivieraKid 11y ago
    Users don't want to design their user interface, it's not their job. This approach is like - here are some musical notes, compose the song that is perfect for you!
- jbk 11y ago
  > I've heard several years ago that their UI philosophy is to target advanced users. Citation needed. From who? From where?
- distances 11y ago
  I think you're in this discussion just trying to spread misery which I don't understand at all. KDE is definitely targeting all users, and their user experience philosophy is "Simple by Default, Powerful When Needed". The latest KDE iteration has advanced in this regard in leaps and bounds, which is evident also in the favourable reviews it's seen. Just google for "plasma 5.2 review".

chestnut-tree 11y ago

I think the main problem is that the open source model of software development doesn't really work when it comes to visual or interaction design. We've all heard that phrase 'design by commitee' but that's what you get when everyone wants a say in the way the UI works. I can understand why this happens even though the outcome is often an unfriendly UI. Imagine you're a developer who's spent time and effort contributing to an open source project. Naturally you'll have an opinion on the UX and what suits your preferences. Everyone else using or contributing will also have a strong opinion. The moment you try and delgate visual and interaction design to a small, dedicated team is the moment the whole project generates enormous resentment from the "community". Plus, any attempt to (sincerely) improve or simplify an interface will always be met at some point with the charge of "dumbing down". Open source and design have never had a good relationship. I wish it were otherwise, but I don't know how it could be made better.

wz1000 11y ago
What do you find 'unfriendly' about Plasma 5 and Breeze?
- RivieraKid 11y ago
  I've left KDE a long time ago but looking at the current screenshots, I find it really ugly.
- chestnut-tree 11y ago
  I was talking in general about Open Source and design not about Plasma. But since you ask, here are some small things I noticed in the video - Mismatched visual styles: when you tap the phone icon, you get a bar of three icons. Two are simple line icons (History and Contacts), the third is a detailed picture of a keyboard to denote keypad. A minor thing and easily fixed. - Interface inconsistencies: I noticed that a large red X is used for closing a screen (which I like over the sometimes unclear Back button behaviour you get in Android). But at 3:16 in the video the Wallpaper screen has a 'close' button (with X) and below that in the tab bar is the larger red X for closing too. So you have two close functions on the same screen. You see the same duplication on the date and Time screen at 3:41. By the way, I think the way Windows Phone lets you change date and time is much nicer. It's a similar spinner approach to Plasma but less cluttered. Here's a video of it in action: https://youtu.be/kIsWgCX7qtE?t=54s https://youtu.be/kIsWgCX7qtE?t=54s Also, the commands 'close', 'cancel' and 'delete' all tend to use the same X icon in many UIs so if there is no label for X, then it's meaning (and behaviour) should be consistent across the OS. - Weather app: there is a 'hamburger' menu on the left and another slimmer hamburger menu on the right. They feel too similar visually. Presumably, the right-hand menu is equivalent to the overflow menu you find on Android. But are two menus needed here? Could they not all sit in one menu? Obviously, this is a beta and these are relatively minor points. I can see some influence from Android, which is fine - there's no doubt that Google, Microsoft and Apple all study and are influenced by each others work. I just hope the OS stands up well as a unique UI rather than just a clone of bits from other OSes. Overall, it looks quite polished for a version 1.0 and I hope the project succeeds. I would love to see an open source project take the lead in design/UX over existing projects.

weirdtunguska 11y ago

Care to explain why for the non design folks?

prawn 11y ago
It looks very "Linux" from however long ago - that is, poor and inconsistent spacing, hodge-podge of icons (especially overcomplicated ones), frugal padding, etc. It's a common look for open source stuff. Doesn't really have and stick with a design language. For some people, that will seem really jarring and uncomfortable.
- zanny 11y ago
  Go try modern Plasma (5.3, 5.4 in a few months) and only use the shell and its widgets. Those are what the VDG has made so far, there have been UI mockups for a lot of software from the file manager to software center that are leaps and bounds better than what are in place, but the manpower in general KDE is really lacking to keep up with the VDG's mockups to actually implement them.

tete 11y ago

What defines UI / UX design? I am not a KDE user (currently). Well I use it once in a while, but compared to Windows, Mac OS (old and new), Android and iOS, which I all have used the only two things I've seen working well, as in being easy to understand and still efficient to use are KDE and XFCE. Oh and Squeak/Pharo. Both Android and iOS are horrible when it comes to easy of use and know what you are doing in my opinion. Everyone using those systems ends up just using a bunch of patterns of clicking and swiping that they repeat every time, because they don't know which of the things they just did actually causes the effect they wanted. In my opinion UI/UX are huge research fields, which you can see when you look at how the paradigms and "dogmas" from two years ago are now known to be the exact opposite of what you want. I think the only reasons things appear easier these days is that people have been exposed to technical interfaces way longer and more intensely. I am not saying that things don't get better, but I think there are a lot of misunderstandings. Users just get used to certain systems after time. They adapt. They adapt to their CLI-based interface, their Macbook (they need too, else they'd have spent thousands of USD for nothing), to new versions of Windows and do KDE/Plasma. Show a completely new computer user (maybe generation 70+) various interfaces and they will learn each of them efficiently after a while. (yeah, I have done that with older people) I think the main thing stopping people from using KDE and having troubles with it is that it's not the common thing that one usually starts out with. It used to be and people were happy until KDE4, which was something new to learn again. This sounds way more defensive of KDE than I intend to. I am not a fan. I use it when I have to choose between Gnome/Unity or KDE (but would probably choose another option, if there is one), just because it feels way more intuitive and easier to use. I never managed to get along with Gnome, but I think that's all based on what I said above. If you are exposed to one thing you will probably stick to it. However, I am happy about every alternative coming up, because it means there is a chance for them improving status quo.

macspoofing 11y ago
>Both Android and iOS are horrible when it comes to easy of use and know what you are doing in my opinion. I'm going to disagree with you there. I've seen toddlers use the iPad. My 60 year old aunt who never 'got' Windows (even simple things like managing application windows, or figuring out where files go after being downloaded), figured out iPad in about a day.

wz1000 11y ago

I think the KDE Visual Design Group is doing a great job and that Breeze and Plasma 5 look great.

distances 11y ago
I have to agree. I think Plasma 5 delivers the best UI/UX available on Linux today, and in many ways exceeds what the Windows and OSX worlds have to offer. This was quite surprising since I wasn't a big fan of the KDE 4 user experience.
sigmaml 11y ago
I agree, and am pleasantly surprised by how well Breeze seems to adapt to a phone interface. I'm hopeful that Visual Design Group will have polished the UI/UX even better for the phone form factor, by the time the distribution becomes stable.

veeti 11y ago

Agreed. I used KDE for years, but I just couldn't stand the hideous interface anymore. GNOME 3 looks good and finally has all the functionality I need from a DE. I had high hopes for their new visual design effort, but in my opinion the new Plasma 5 theme looks like a really, really bad OS X Yosemite ripoff. (Which is ironic, since Yosemite came afterwards.)

RivieraKid 11y ago
What do you think about MATE or Gnome 2? I think it's still the best Linux desktop environment.