3 ms·
Need to watch the video but it seems a bit poor phrasing to say Elm, etc "misapplied" FRP. Elm even makes a point in their docs that they don't adhere to a str
by vvanders 11y ago
Need to watch the video but it seems a bit poor phrasing to say Elm, etc "misapplied" FRP.
Elm even makes a point in their docs that they don't adhere to a strict definition of FRP:
http://elm-lang.org/docs http://elm-lang.org/docs
- rubiquity 11y agoAgreed. I bet the author thinks this way solely because Elm is strict rather than lazy. So what? Strict is much, much more simple.
- ericssmith 11y agoNo. The author is the originator of FRP and has had a clear definition of it for almost two decades that included a written denotational semantics and modeling of continuous time. FRP has been confusingly redefined by a string of people in the last few years. They could've chosen other labels.
- vvanders 11y agoThe thing is elm doesn't say they are FRP, just that they borrow ideas from it.
- ericssmith 11y agohttp://elm-lang.org/papers/concurrent-frp.pdf http://elm-lang.org/papers/concurrent-frp.pdf
- vvanders 11y agoSince I can't reply directly that paper references classical FRP and how elm differs. Anyway my metapoint still stands in that tone is a poor way to foster community and collaboration.
- rubiquity 11y agoNot only that but purist definitions help nothing at all. I don't care if FRP is well defined. If the definition of FRP doesn't make my programming experience better but FRP with some adaptation does, then I'll take the latter every time.
- dang 11y agoYou guys are being too dismissive. If the creator of a seminal concept wants to explain precisely what he meant by it, it behooves us to listen. This thread should be about the substance of what he says in the talk, not perceived slights to other projects which we're all still free to use.
- rubiquity 11y agoI don't take issue with Conal Elliott taking the time to explain what he meant by it. I very much appreciate that! My issue is with the poster above that puts down languages with FRP concepts because they aren't "The FRP, The Whole FRP and Nothing But The FRP." I love the FP community but if there's one thing everyone on a whole could learn it is that purist beliefs do no good for FP adoption and only help reinforce the "Functional Programmers are condescending" sentiment.
- tikhonj 11y agoIt's a different perspective on what should be important with FRP. Similar to, say, Alan Kay's views on OOP in C++. (Similar because Conal was one of the original creators of FRP and because, in both cases, I think their attempts to preserve the essence of their ideas are both valiant and worthy but likely to fail because of social dynamics.) Just like C++, Elm got the structure of FRP but sacrificed some of the essence at the altar of "worse is better" and an easier implementation. It's a strong statement coming from a strong philosophical position. It might be "poor phrasing" in terms of being impolitic or not entirely clear, but I don't know how to convey the same idea with the same strength differently. Just toning the sentiment down does not seem like an effective alternative.
- CMCDragonkai 11y agoIt's important to read Evan's thesis: https://www.seas.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/files/archived/Czaplicki.pdf https://www.seas.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/files/archi... to get an idea of how Elm evolved. He has considered other formulations of FRP, but they all have tradeoffs. Now if "real" FRP is important, perhaps someone can suggest a framework as mature as Elm to use? I know of RDP which is an interesting idea too: https://awelonblue.wordpress.com/about/ https://awelonblue.wordpress.com/about/
- conal 11y ago"Misapplied" was a paraphrase introduced during transcription, not something I said in my talk.