8 ms·

It's not just men, it's high-class men. Lots of hackers think that good work wins, but it's good work marketed well wins, and it turns out that people are incr

by lsb 17y ago

It's not just men, it's high-class men. Lots of hackers think that good work wins, but it's good work marketed well wins, and it turns out that people are incredibly biased towards high-class men, and a name like "James Chartrand" is a prime example. I challenge her to see the results when she chooses a name like "Tyrone Jackson".

ebrenes 17y ago
On a similar line, since we don't know her real name then it could just very well be there's some other bias against her name besides the gender issue. It's not unheard of for names that are associated with a specific ethnicity having an effect. I have a name that's almost impossible to pronounce for English speakers, and I've always noted the difference between when I use my real name or when I use the anglicized version. Potential clients are going to go with the option that's easier, and yes that might even include things such as: the name that's easier to pronounce, the gender the client can identify with the easiest or the name that clicks subconsciously with them. These aren't just interesting bits, they're part of the image we portray. Actors have known this for quite some time and it's common to pick stage names.
- electromagnetic 17y ago
  From what I got from the pseudonym's blog is that 'he' is a Canadian, and suggested French Canadian. If this is true for the real author then there's all the reason in the world for not hiring her. I want English copy, I don't want it from someone I believe to be French whether my assumption is correct or not. I'm going to hire John Smith over Jean Lefevre at the drop of a hat, however Anglicize Jean Lefevre and you have the employable writers name of John Smith. I have a very English surname, which has never given me a problem when applying for a writing gig.
  - ido 17y ago
    I am not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but if it isn't - why would you not hire a French Canadian?
    - electromagnetic 17y ago
      As I said, contracting someone to write English copy, I would instinctively and likely purposely hire someone with an English sounding name based on name alone. A French name won't get you hired for writing in English, it might however get you hired to write in French even if your native tongue is English.
      - waterlesscloud 17y ago
        Chartrand sounds pretty French to me.
- bugsbane 17y ago
  It seems the reverse experiment might work as well, for a well known writer to post with an unappealing (and perhaps even female) name and compare the revenue per post on each one. That does not seem overly difficult though the writer might by leaving money "on the table".
axod 17y ago
Slightly related: When I first visited the US, I was really surprised at the adverts in newspapers for realtors (estate agents). They all had photos of the realtors faces?! Do people choose realtors based on their photo? How would that make any sense at all. Perhaps it's just some custom that's been passed down, but it really freaked me out. Could you use some other picture of a warm fuzzy respectable person and say "Oh yeah James Hilby-Smithe is currently unavailable, I'm his associate I can help you"? Would that be legal. I wonder if any of them do this already.
- sethg 17y ago
  I can’t think of very many objective criteria that would help someone choose one Realtor®¹ over another. They all get paid the same commission and they all have access to the same database of listings. So it makes sense that they would differentiate themselves from each other by using their handsome faces; what else is there? ¹That HN link to information about third-level keys has changed my life. Possibly not in a good way. :-)
  - axod 17y ago
    Past data on the houses they've recently sold, and for how much? :/
    - pyre 17y ago
      What data, and how to present that in an advertisement?
      - axod 17y ago
        Typically in UK adverts you have pictures of houses, summary of details, price, and if it's sold, they slap a big "SOLD" across it. This shows you how well they can sell, and how much they get for properties. Adverts in papers are typically a full page, so there's plenty of space.
    - sethg 17y ago
      If you see an ad that says “I sold the house pictured here for $300,000”, then for all you know, the guy sitting at the next desk over could have sold it for $350,000.
neilk 17y ago
There was a section in Freakonomics about this. Most of that chapter is available here. http://www.slate.com/id/2116449/ http://www.slate.com/id/2116449/ An empirical study concluded that "black" names had no effect; it was background. On the other hand, it's only people with a certain kind of background that name their kid "Shaniqua" (middle class blacks usually adopt generic North American naming standards). So I'm not sure if that contradicts your point.
anigbrowl 17y ago
Funny you should mention that. I'm Irish and white but my name (Eddy Robinson) 'sounds black' to a lot of people, and I wasn't aware of this until someone I was doing business with expressed surprise on our first meeting. I did a quick straw poll of acquaintances who I'd had first contact via email or seeing my resume and they confirmed this assumption. I can't say it's ever affected me personally though I wonder sometimes if it's a factor when I bid on a job and don't get a reply. This article made me think more about the possibilities if I had picked some place other than California to live when I came to the US: http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2008/04/on-having-black-name.html http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2008/04/on-having-black-na...
- duncanj 17y ago
  Robinson = Robertson = Duncan. Two ready-made pseudonyms!
- falsestprophet 17y ago
  FTFY: Edward Robinson
  - anigbrowl 17y ago
    Indeed, and Mrs Browl has suggested I use this form professionally for a little extra sizzle, or even the Irish version (Eamon Mac Robin) for an exotic flavor - I work in the entertainment industry and even behind the camera personal branding carries a little more weight than in some other fields. Other readers might be interested in this census document on the demographics of common US surnames; turns out there's a 44% probability someone named Robinson is African-American, for example: http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/surnames.pdf http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/surnames.pdf
    - lsb 17y ago
      Jon Stuart Leibowitz decided that Jon Stewart was a better TV name. In America, we had had "Irish need not apply" signs in windows in the 1800s and early 1900s, but that prejudice is basically non-existent; if you think it'll give you a leg up, do it.
boredguy8 17y ago
I've recently given a lot of thought to shifting from "Joey" to "Joseph" as my day-to-day name. I'm reluctant, but if you're theory is right, it seems like it would command more respect.

by lsb 17y ago

ebrenes 17y ago

On a similar line, since we don't know her real name then it could just very well be there's some other bias against her name besides the gender issue. It's not unheard of for names that are associated with a specific ethnicity having an effect. I have a name that's almost impossible to pronounce for English speakers, and I've always noted the difference between when I use my real name or when I use the anglicized version. Potential clients are going to go with the option that's easier, and yes that might even include things such as: the name that's easier to pronounce, the gender the client can identify with the easiest or the name that clicks subconsciously with them. These aren't just interesting bits, they're part of the image we portray. Actors have known this for quite some time and it's common to pick stage names.

electromagnetic 17y ago
From what I got from the pseudonym's blog is that 'he' is a Canadian, and suggested French Canadian. If this is true for the real author then there's all the reason in the world for not hiring her. I want English copy, I don't want it from someone I believe to be French whether my assumption is correct or not. I'm going to hire John Smith over Jean Lefevre at the drop of a hat, however Anglicize Jean Lefevre and you have the employable writers name of John Smith. I have a very English surname, which has never given me a problem when applying for a writing gig.
- ido 17y ago
  I am not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but if it isn't - why would you not hire a French Canadian?
  - electromagnetic 17y ago
    As I said, contracting someone to write English copy, I would instinctively and likely purposely hire someone with an English sounding name based on name alone. A French name won't get you hired for writing in English, it might however get you hired to write in French even if your native tongue is English.
    - waterlesscloud 17y ago
      Chartrand sounds pretty French to me.
bugsbane 17y ago
It seems the reverse experiment might work as well, for a well known writer to post with an unappealing (and perhaps even female) name and compare the revenue per post on each one. That does not seem overly difficult though the writer might by leaving money "on the table".

axod 17y ago

Slightly related: When I first visited the US, I was really surprised at the adverts in newspapers for realtors (estate agents). They all had photos of the realtors faces?! Do people choose realtors based on their photo? How would that make any sense at all. Perhaps it's just some custom that's been passed down, but it really freaked me out. Could you use some other picture of a warm fuzzy respectable person and say "Oh yeah James Hilby-Smithe is currently unavailable, I'm his associate I can help you"? Would that be legal. I wonder if any of them do this already.

sethg 17y ago
I can’t think of very many objective criteria that would help someone choose one Realtor®¹ over another. They all get paid the same commission and they all have access to the same database of listings. So it makes sense that they would differentiate themselves from each other by using their handsome faces; what else is there? ¹That HN link to information about third-level keys has changed my life. Possibly not in a good way. :-)
- axod 17y ago
  Past data on the houses they've recently sold, and for how much? :/
  - pyre 17y ago
    What data, and how to present that in an advertisement?
    - axod 17y ago
      Typically in UK adverts you have pictures of houses, summary of details, price, and if it's sold, they slap a big "SOLD" across it. This shows you how well they can sell, and how much they get for properties. Adverts in papers are typically a full page, so there's plenty of space.
  - sethg 17y ago
    If you see an ad that says “I sold the house pictured here for $300,000”, then for all you know, the guy sitting at the next desk over could have sold it for $350,000.

neilk 17y ago

There was a section in Freakonomics about this. Most of that chapter is available here. http://www.slate.com/id/2116449/ http://www.slate.com/id/2116449/ An empirical study concluded that "black" names had no effect; it was background. On the other hand, it's only people with a certain kind of background that name their kid "Shaniqua" (middle class blacks usually adopt generic North American naming standards). So I'm not sure if that contradicts your point.

anigbrowl 17y ago

Funny you should mention that. I'm Irish and white but my name (Eddy Robinson) 'sounds black' to a lot of people, and I wasn't aware of this until someone I was doing business with expressed surprise on our first meeting. I did a quick straw poll of acquaintances who I'd had first contact via email or seeing my resume and they confirmed this assumption. I can't say it's ever affected me personally though I wonder sometimes if it's a factor when I bid on a job and don't get a reply. This article made me think more about the possibilities if I had picked some place other than California to live when I came to the US: http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2008/04/on-having-black-name.html http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2008/04/on-having-black-na...

duncanj 17y ago
Robinson = Robertson = Duncan. Two ready-made pseudonyms!
falsestprophet 17y ago
FTFY: Edward Robinson
- anigbrowl 17y ago
  Indeed, and Mrs Browl has suggested I use this form professionally for a little extra sizzle, or even the Irish version (Eamon Mac Robin) for an exotic flavor - I work in the entertainment industry and even behind the camera personal branding carries a little more weight than in some other fields. Other readers might be interested in this census document on the demographics of common US surnames; turns out there's a 44% probability someone named Robinson is African-American, for example: http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/surnames.pdf http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/surnames.pdf
  - lsb 17y ago
    Jon Stuart Leibowitz decided that Jon Stewart was a better TV name. In America, we had had "Irish need not apply" signs in windows in the 1800s and early 1900s, but that prejudice is basically non-existent; if you think it'll give you a leg up, do it.

boredguy8 17y ago

I've recently given a lot of thought to shifting from "Joey" to "Joseph" as my day-to-day name. I'm reluctant, but if you're theory is right, it seems like it would command more respect.