8 ms·

I am a man, and feminist, and have spoken with many other feminists over the years, and read a lot of feminist literature, philosophy, cultural criticism, etc.

I am a man, and feminist, and have spoken with many other feminists over the years, and read a lot of feminist literature, philosophy, cultural criticism, etc. In my experience I'd say less than 1% of feminism/feminists have anything to do with being against men. I'm having a hard time thinking of anything, actually, I could reasonably describe as promoting this view. Maybe some radical stuff from the 70s, like Firestone, but I'm hard-pressed to come up with any other serious examples.

cpncrunch 11y ago
What about the Vagina Monologues?
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  What about them?
  - cpncrunch 11y ago
    They are very anti-male. (I thought that was obvious so I didn't mention it, and if you read the wikipedia page or watch the play, you'll see what I mean).
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
      I have not seen the play, but looking at the wikipedia page, they give eight examples of the monologues, and I don't see anything that's obviously anti-male. (unless you're going to get angry about "My Vagina Was My Village, a monologue compiled from the testimonies of Bosnian women subjected to rape camps.")
      - cpncrunch 11y ago
        I have seen the play. The issue is that all the male-female relationships are portrayed as bad, whereas female-female relationships are portrayed as good (even when the girl was underage). This is discussed in the wikipedia page, and it's also pretty obvious if you watch the play.
        kragen 11y ago
        I saw the play too. It sounds like the version you saw didn't have the story about Bob in it? That was, like, a tale of instant miraculous redemption through a male-female sexual relationship. And what about the relationship between the coochie-snorcher girl and her father, who shot to death his friend who was raping her? (Maybe you meant "sexual relationship" where you wrote "relationship", which would exclude that one.) And I'm pretty sure in the "If your vagina could talk, what would it say?" part, there were a lot of women speaking positively about male-female sexual relationships. I didn't think it was too unbalanced, but of course I'm a pretty committed feminist, which is why I saw the play in the first place, back in 2000.
mafribe 11y ago
I'm a man and have spoken with many other feminists over the years, and read a lot of feminist literature, philosophy, cultural criticism, etc. In my experience I'd say that more than 99% of feminism/feminists have all to do with being against men. I'm having a hard time thinking of anything, actually, I could reasonably describe as not promoting this view. Maybe some radical stuff from the 70s, like Firestone, makes this hatred explicit, but these days the hatred is expressed more subtly, typically in legal initiatives that clearly disadvantage men, for example the insane rules around divorce and alimony.
- normloman 11y ago
  Feminism back then was different than feminism today. Most young feminists oppose alimony, since it assumes women can't support themselves, and is unfair to men. Feminists long ago supposed alimony when most women were house keepers, and alimony was important to giving them independence following divorce. I agree, some of the stuff from the 70s was downright incendiary (shooting Andy Warhol, etc). But feminism has evolved.
  - mafribe 11y ago
    Most young feminists oppose alimony, Where are all those young feminists campaigning against alimony, for 50/50 shared custody in divorce, equally severe sentencing criminal cases for men and women, draft for women, etc? I'm not meeting them.
    - johnny22 11y ago
      before they be drafted, they actaully have to be able to serve in combat roles.. which they now can. This is a recent development in the US.
- justizin 11y ago
  Neither of you have possibly lived long enough to have a reasonable sample size.
  - 11y ago
new_corp_dev 11y ago
Men are rapists and sexual offenders by default. Men are violent. If a man finds a woman physically attractive then he is objectifying her. Men should not be paid according to the merits of their work and ability. Men should not have any reproductive rights. Men should continue paying for a woman's lifestyle after a divorce. Men should recognize their "privilege" and be constantly reminded of it, even though being told you should be ashamed of your gender is at the very heart of sexism. Men should not be allowed into women's "safe spaces", implying they are dangerous and intimidating by default. Similarly, men should not be allowed to have their own "safe spaces", because that's sexist and exclusionary. Men cannot have body issues resulting from over-exaggerated muscle-bound heroes in cartoons and movies (He-Man and the like) because they represent a "male power fantasy". But Barbie is responsible for decades of female self-image issues. Men cannot discuss their issues in a public forum without feminist protestors shutting down discussions. If a female character chooses to dress provocatively, it is because a man chose to objectify her, not because a woman can take charge of their own sexuality. If a man is harassed online, it's unfortunate (sometimes). If a woman is harassed online, it's representative of a disturbing trend. Similarly, men cannot understand the plight of a woman's harassment, even if said man also receives daily death threats and has had a gun fired through their living room window. Men should receive much harsher punishments than women for committing the same crimes.
- dmansen 11y ago
  wut
- antihero 11y ago
  Oh my word. Not saying I agree with all of them 100%, but you have utterly misconstrued the arguments. > Men are rapists and sexual offenders by default. Nope, the argument is that there is a societal pattern that devalues the severity of rape through humour and other cultural tropes. > Men are violent. The patriarchal "masculinity" foisted upon men is one that is competitive and aggressive. > If a man finds a woman physically attractive then he is objectifying her. If you see a woman only existing as to please your sexual appetite, you are objecting. > Men should not be paid according to the merits of their work and ability. Women should be paid according to the merits of their work and ability, along with men. > Men should not have any reproductive rights. A woman's body is hers to do with as she should wish. Nobody should have operations forced upon them. > Men should continue paying for a woman's lifestyle after a divorce. Due to the fact that often a carer role is taken by a woman in a patriarchal society, this means that her earning potential and career is sacrificed. > Men should recognize their "privilege" and be constantly reminded of it, even though being told you should be ashamed of your gender is at the very heart of sexism. There are advantages that men get because of their sex/gender, and these should be recognised. > Men should not be allowed into women's "safe spaces", implying they are dangerous and intimidating by default. Similarly, men should not be allowed to have their own "safe spaces", because that's sexist and exclusionary. Due to many women having suffered terrible experiences at the hands of men, and the tendency for men to dominate discussions, there needs to be a place away from that where people can talk without fear and interruption. > Men cannot have body issues resulting from over-exaggerated muscle-bound heroes in cartoons and movies (He-Man and the like) because they represent a "male power fantasy". But Barbie is responsible for decades of female self-image issues. Not sure about that one, I think the argument drastically varies, but men are more often portrayed in a powerful, dominant role. > If a female character chooses to dress provocatively, it is because a man chose to objectify her, not because a woman can take charge of their own sexuality. Characters are often designed by men, for men. > If a man is harassed online, it's unfortunate (sometimes). If a woman is harassed online, it's representative of a disturbing trend. Similarly, men cannot understand the plight of a woman's harassment, even if said man also receives daily death threats and has had a gun fired through their living room window. Yes because receiving some flame or smack is the same as constant rape threats. > Men should receive much harsher punishments than women for committing the same crimes. This is bullshit, obviously.
Nadya 11y ago
The issue is that the 1% are the loudest ones. They drown out the more reasonable ones and are the ones that seem to be more outspoken on Twitter and Tumblr where they receive a wider audience than they deserve. I have no issue with claiming that "feminazis" are a minority of feminists, as I'm sure they are. But to pretend they don't exist or that they aren't the most outspoken is being in denial of reality. Any memorable contact I've had with feminists has been with that nasty, confrontational "1%". I'm not alone with these poor interactions - as people are quickly referring to that 1% group as "feminists". Representative of the entire group as a whole, which is a bad image for the more reasonable feminists to hold and why many feminists refuse to call themselves a feminist. They might be mistaken for "that kind" of feminist. The "fight" has become so polarized by extremists from both sides (MRA and feminist, to clarify) that as an egalitarian I get called a "man-hating feminist" by many MRA and a "disgusting misogynist pig" by many feminists. I find this funny - but also very depressing.

cpncrunch 11y ago

What about the Vagina Monologues?

GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
What about them?
- cpncrunch 11y ago
  They are very anti-male. (I thought that was obvious so I didn't mention it, and if you read the wikipedia page or watch the play, you'll see what I mean).
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
    I have not seen the play, but looking at the wikipedia page, they give eight examples of the monologues, and I don't see anything that's obviously anti-male. (unless you're going to get angry about "My Vagina Was My Village, a monologue compiled from the testimonies of Bosnian women subjected to rape camps.")
    - cpncrunch 11y ago
      I have seen the play. The issue is that all the male-female relationships are portrayed as bad, whereas female-female relationships are portrayed as good (even when the girl was underage). This is discussed in the wikipedia page, and it's also pretty obvious if you watch the play.
      - kragen 11y ago
        I saw the play too. It sounds like the version you saw didn't have the story about Bob in it? That was, like, a tale of instant miraculous redemption through a male-female sexual relationship. And what about the relationship between the coochie-snorcher girl and her father, who shot to death his friend who was raping her? (Maybe you meant "sexual relationship" where you wrote "relationship", which would exclude that one.) And I'm pretty sure in the "If your vagina could talk, what would it say?" part, there were a lot of women speaking positively about male-female sexual relationships. I didn't think it was too unbalanced, but of course I'm a pretty committed feminist, which is why I saw the play in the first place, back in 2000.

mafribe 11y ago

I'm a man and have spoken with many other feminists over the years, and read a lot of feminist literature, philosophy, cultural criticism, etc. In my experience I'd say that more than 99% of feminism/feminists have all to do with being against men. I'm having a hard time thinking of anything, actually, I could reasonably describe as not promoting this view. Maybe some radical stuff from the 70s, like Firestone, makes this hatred explicit, but these days the hatred is expressed more subtly, typically in legal initiatives that clearly disadvantage men, for example the insane rules around divorce and alimony.

normloman 11y ago
Feminism back then was different than feminism today. Most young feminists oppose alimony, since it assumes women can't support themselves, and is unfair to men. Feminists long ago supposed alimony when most women were house keepers, and alimony was important to giving them independence following divorce. I agree, some of the stuff from the 70s was downright incendiary (shooting Andy Warhol, etc). But feminism has evolved.
- mafribe 11y ago
  Most young feminists oppose alimony, Where are all those young feminists campaigning against alimony, for 50/50 shared custody in divorce, equally severe sentencing criminal cases for men and women, draft for women, etc? I'm not meeting them.
  - johnny22 11y ago
    before they be drafted, they actaully have to be able to serve in combat roles.. which they now can. This is a recent development in the US.
justizin 11y ago
Neither of you have possibly lived long enough to have a reasonable sample size.
- 11y ago

new_corp_dev 11y ago

Men are rapists and sexual offenders by default. Men are violent. If a man finds a woman physically attractive then he is objectifying her. Men should not be paid according to the merits of their work and ability. Men should not have any reproductive rights. Men should continue paying for a woman's lifestyle after a divorce. Men should recognize their "privilege" and be constantly reminded of it, even though being told you should be ashamed of your gender is at the very heart of sexism. Men should not be allowed into women's "safe spaces", implying they are dangerous and intimidating by default. Similarly, men should not be allowed to have their own "safe spaces", because that's sexist and exclusionary. Men cannot have body issues resulting from over-exaggerated muscle-bound heroes in cartoons and movies (He-Man and the like) because they represent a "male power fantasy". But Barbie is responsible for decades of female self-image issues. Men cannot discuss their issues in a public forum without feminist protestors shutting down discussions. If a female character chooses to dress provocatively, it is because a man chose to objectify her, not because a woman can take charge of their own sexuality. If a man is harassed online, it's unfortunate (sometimes). If a woman is harassed online, it's representative of a disturbing trend. Similarly, men cannot understand the plight of a woman's harassment, even if said man also receives daily death threats and has had a gun fired through their living room window. Men should receive much harsher punishments than women for committing the same crimes.

dmansen 11y ago
wut
antihero 11y ago
Oh my word. Not saying I agree with all of them 100%, but you have utterly misconstrued the arguments. > Men are rapists and sexual offenders by default. Nope, the argument is that there is a societal pattern that devalues the severity of rape through humour and other cultural tropes. > Men are violent. The patriarchal "masculinity" foisted upon men is one that is competitive and aggressive. > If a man finds a woman physically attractive then he is objectifying her. If you see a woman only existing as to please your sexual appetite, you are objecting. > Men should not be paid according to the merits of their work and ability. Women should be paid according to the merits of their work and ability, along with men. > Men should not have any reproductive rights. A woman's body is hers to do with as she should wish. Nobody should have operations forced upon them. > Men should continue paying for a woman's lifestyle after a divorce. Due to the fact that often a carer role is taken by a woman in a patriarchal society, this means that her earning potential and career is sacrificed. > Men should recognize their "privilege" and be constantly reminded of it, even though being told you should be ashamed of your gender is at the very heart of sexism. There are advantages that men get because of their sex/gender, and these should be recognised. > Men should not be allowed into women's "safe spaces", implying they are dangerous and intimidating by default. Similarly, men should not be allowed to have their own "safe spaces", because that's sexist and exclusionary. Due to many women having suffered terrible experiences at the hands of men, and the tendency for men to dominate discussions, there needs to be a place away from that where people can talk without fear and interruption. > Men cannot have body issues resulting from over-exaggerated muscle-bound heroes in cartoons and movies (He-Man and the like) because they represent a "male power fantasy". But Barbie is responsible for decades of female self-image issues. Not sure about that one, I think the argument drastically varies, but men are more often portrayed in a powerful, dominant role. > If a female character chooses to dress provocatively, it is because a man chose to objectify her, not because a woman can take charge of their own sexuality. Characters are often designed by men, for men. > If a man is harassed online, it's unfortunate (sometimes). If a woman is harassed online, it's representative of a disturbing trend. Similarly, men cannot understand the plight of a woman's harassment, even if said man also receives daily death threats and has had a gun fired through their living room window. Yes because receiving some flame or smack is the same as constant rape threats. > Men should receive much harsher punishments than women for committing the same crimes. This is bullshit, obviously.

Nadya 11y ago

The issue is that the 1% are the loudest ones. They drown out the more reasonable ones and are the ones that seem to be more outspoken on Twitter and Tumblr where they receive a wider audience than they deserve. I have no issue with claiming that "feminazis" are a minority of feminists, as I'm sure they are. But to pretend they don't exist or that they aren't the most outspoken is being in denial of reality. Any memorable contact I've had with feminists has been with that nasty, confrontational "1%". I'm not alone with these poor interactions - as people are quickly referring to that 1% group as "feminists". Representative of the entire group as a whole, which is a bad image for the more reasonable feminists to hold and why many feminists refuse to call themselves a feminist. They might be mistaken for "that kind" of feminist. The "fight" has become so polarized by extremists from both sides (MRA and feminist, to clarify) that as an egalitarian I get called a "man-hating feminist" by many MRA and a "disgusting misogynist pig" by many feminists. I find this funny - but also very depressing.