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Funding Clojure 2010
- swannodette 17y agoSome fascinating thoughts about sustainable open-source development. For me, Clojure was/is easily one of the most exciting developing events in programming languages in 2009. I started following the language around October 2008 and I've seen the mailing list go from 500 to close to 3K. Amid this growth both the mailing list and the IRC channel have remained helpful and friendly. Useful tools are popping up everywhere, and more and more people are using it as the secret sauce in their projects. And even if you don't like the language (being a Lisp), it's hard to deny that Clojure's ubiquitous use of persistent data structures and rich variety of concurrency primitives have made what previously seemed academic and esoteric concepts practical and everyday. If you're a Clojure fan or even an open source advocate, think about chipping in! I have a feeling 2010 will be yet another great year for Clojure ;)
- brown9-2 17y agoI hope that this story has a good ending, and that the community (especially businesses) step up to make sure development can go on.
- numair 17y agoIs Clojure used for any particularly interesting tasks in which it results in a massive improvement in performance, efficiency, or TCO? Is there any specific community of users who are doing commercially-applicable stuff with Clojure? I don't know a lot about Clojure, but if it is gaining a following for some sort of commercial application, it would make sense to start "The Clojure Company" and sell support contracts, training, etc.; if this is the case there's no reason this guy should be asking for handouts (he should be raising funding!). But again, hoping people from the Clojure community can enlighten me. I am sure some large Silicon Valley company could hire him to add to their pet collection, but that'd be totally boring, especially if Clojure has real commercial applications... Edit: I should note -- if there aren't any specific domains in which Clojure is either necessary or an improvement, it may just be a nice curiosity (like most programming languages), and the author is making a wise decision; again, I know very little.
- va_coder 17y agoAnother idea: A jobs posting site with a focus on Clojure jobs. Training, with an emphasis on why Clojure matters and how it can help your org? I thought Clojure hit the tipping point this year. I'm surprised Rick Hickey is hurting for money.
- runevault 17y agoHe is doing the pragprog training in Reston this year with Stuart Halloway, though who knows how many people will go to the east coast for training. I know I'm not, though I'd love to get in on one of those sessions.
- bwanab 17y agoA few of us actually live on the east coast.
- icey 17y agoI don't think the Clojure community is as large as you think it is. Pragmatic Studios are putting on a Clojure training course in March, but otherwise how would Rich have made any money on Clojure so far? He hasn't written any books and doesn't charge for anything - all that has been available for him so far is the "Donate" link on clojure.org, but it's never really been publicized.
- technomancy 17y agoHe gets 10% of the sales from the Peepcode screencast on Clojure: http://peepcode.com/products/functional-programming-with-clojure http://peepcode.com/products/functional-programming-with-clo... It's not much in the big picture, but I suppose every little bit helps.
- icey 17y agoI had no idea that Rich got anything from the screencast, that's great :)
- albertcardona 17y agoRick Hickey's funding plead has been posted on clojure's website: http://clojure.org/funding http://clojure.org/funding There's a "donate" button in the front page: http://clojure.org/ http://clojure.org/
- yason 17y agoI shelled out $250 for Rick. It won't feed his family for long but I'm only one guy and it's absolutely worth it. Clojure is the most exciting environment I've used for years. I've spent most of this year learning to write and actually writing non-trivial programs in Clojure. It's been a fun ride, the best one for years! With Clojure programming becomes, instead of fighting small but bugging issues with the system, following your curiosity instead.
- albertcardona 17y agoI shelled out $100 a while ago, after arguing with Rich over IRC that a donation system would be a good idea. He setup the sourceforge donation (now there's a different one) and on it went. I guess my insistence helped him take a decision that I am sure he had been considering for some time. Rich was spending way too much time on clojure, but he wasn't making a living at all out of it. Just from what Clojure has taught me on concurrency and time management, it's been worth every dollar. I wish I was a company and I could dip my hands into deeper pockets. [EDIT: Rick/Rich ... there are too many Rick/Rich in my life. Thanks for the notice.]
- swannodette 17y agoJust a niggling point but will people stop writing Rick, it's Rich ;)
- ericlavigne 17y agoAfter donating, I added the following paragraph to the bottom of all my Clojure-related articles. Hopefully it will encourage others to donate as well. I donated $100 so that Rich Hickey can continue working full-time to make Clojure even better. You should read more <a href=" http://clojure.org/funding http://clojure.org/funding ">here</a> and click the "donate" button at the bottom of that page. http://ericlavigne.wordpress.com/2008/12/18/compojure-on-a-slicehost-vps/#donate http://ericlavigne.wordpress.com/2008/12/18/compojure-on-a-s... http://ericlavigne.wordpress.com/2008/12/28/using-postgresql-with-compojure/#donate http://ericlavigne.wordpress.com/2008/12/28/using-postgresql... http://ericlavigne.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/compojure-security-authentication-and-authorization/#donate http://ericlavigne.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/compojure-securi... http://ericlavigne.wordpress.com/2009/02/11/clojure-presentation-at-gatorjug/#donate http://ericlavigne.wordpress.com/2009/02/11/clojure-presenta...
- runevault 17y agoWent ahead and threw in a share, will be curious to see how many throw in. There are enough people subscribed to the list that he could probably be fairly well funded if enough threw in. Hopefully it turns out well.
- mstevens 17y agoPut my $100 in. Not an active user of clojure at the moment, but a huge fan of the project, and I hope to use it more in future.
- davidw 17y agoWhile that's kind of you, the problem with funding open source this way is that it's a "squeaky wheel gets the grease" system in some ways. Did you shell out 100$ for all the other open source code you use? I say this as a huge open source fan, but one of the things about paying for proprietary software that works is that it helps to solve this problem: it connects the author/s of the software directly with the money they feel is appropriate for their product. If the price is right, they earn money and (hopefully) reinvest some in the product. If the price is wrong or the product crappy, it goes away.
- davidw 17y ago> Did you shell out 100$ for all the other open source code you use? By the way: I don't mean to pick on you, of course, and I think your gesture is a very kind one. I just picked someone at random amongst the donors.
- prospero 17y agoSpeaking personally, I didn't donate out of some sense of duty to the abstract concept of open source, I donated because I have a vested interest in seeing Clojure succeed. If it reaches prominence as a language, that has a real, long-term impact on my career satisfaction. There isn't much open source software which fits that description.
- wheels 17y agoHe should really set up a 501(c) 3 as that makes it a lot easier to get corporate donations since they then become tax deductible.
- cemerick 17y agoWe ( http://snowtide.com http://snowtide.com ) are sponsoring Clojure, and we'll be able to simply treat it like any other expense. I'm sure we could figure out (or, have our accountant figure out) how to get the same benefits if the same amount were being dispersed as a donation to a nonprofit, but I personally like not having to figure that out at this point.
- wheels 17y agoI won't claim to understand the mechanics of such, but I know that there's a notable tax difference between charitable donations and expenses (or perhaps donations can't technically be considered expenses?). It's not such a big deal for e.g. startups, but IBM, HP, et al are much more likely to write a big check (say, $10k) if it's to a 501 (c) 3. I've seen other open source projects jump through these hoops specifically for those reasons. Getting a few of those folks lined up for "The Clojure Foundation" is probably a faster route to being sustainable than $100 at a time.
- cemerick 17y agoI don't understand the difference, either, which is why I like the fact that our contribution looks and works just like an expense. For small orgs, certainly, there's only two numbers that matter: revenue and expenses. Figuring out how to set up a third bucket is overhead I'm not interested in now. :-)
- davidw 17y agoThat's why you have an accountant. Like wheels says, there are tax benefits, and if you're not taking advantage of them, you are likely wasting your company's money. Or, thinking of it another way, with the non-profit tax stuff, you could give more money to Clojure or whatever else.
- epall 17y agoI'm just a student, but I feel it's still my responsibility to donate. My research project next semester is going to focus quite a bit on Clojure, and I feel lucky to have access to such a great environment. Thanks, Rich!
- JesseAldridge 17y agoOpen source software is a textbook example of a public good. It seems blindingly obvious that it should be taxpayer funded. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good
- lacker 17y agoIt can already be partially taxpayer funded if it gets set up as a 501c3 charitable organization.
- dpatru 17y agoRather than seek to coerce your fellows, just give money yourself to the causes you like and encourage others to do the same. If you and a just a hundred others give one hundred dollars per month, Rick would be making a nice salary. And no one would have to be coerced. This way, besides supporting useful software, you're also supporting something even more important: a free society.
- JesseAldridge 17y agoThat kind of idealism falls short because of the free-rider problem. See the above link.
- pelle 17y agoYou could then counter argue that the project that you wish to support through force becomes a free-rider it self as the project beneficiaries don't have to compete in the economic market the same way as those forced to pay for them are. Voluntary doesn't always work but is always preferable over forced.
- JesseAldridge 17y agoThe project itself would not be a free-rider, because it would need to provide sufficient value to justify its cost. In a government system, expert judges are the conventional way of making this assessment. True, you would lose conventional market incentives, but you would gain all the benefits that history has shown come from open source: higher quality, lower cost, free exchange of ideas, etc. For projects such as Clojure, which don't have an obvious business model, there is no better way to secure funding. Force should be used when it will yield great benefits for society.
- prospero 17y agoDonated $100. Rich Hickey is amazingly prolific; even if this only supports an hour or two of his work, that translates into very real improvements to Clojure.
- jcsalterego 17y agoNo pressure, Flightcaster!
- icey 17y agoI'm not really sure Flightcaster is in a position to start donating money - they aren't profitable yet AFAIK. However, they have been open-sourcing a lot of their Clojure projects, which is a great way to increase the visibility of the language.
- jcsalterego 17y agoI am looking forward to seeing FC reach Clojure-donation-profitable :)
- jaf12duke 17y agoSo do we! We won't wait until then to start giving back. We just sent in our contributions, both from FC and personally. We've gained a tremendous amount from Rich--happy to play a part in supporting him and Clojure moving forward.
- magoghm 17y agoClojure is exactly the kind of language I want on the JVM. Donated $100 USD. Will also donate for each commercial project I do using Clojure.
- magoghm 17y agoIt seems that donating is good for your karma. Just after I donated my $100 this morning, I received an unexpected payment for $3,800 USD! :D
- praptak 17y agoSenior Developer Dick Scroogey hasn't donated and his system got into a huge deadlock. Colonel Winston Brown only donated $30 and got hit by a nasty compiler bug, but then added the missing $70 and another compiler bug fixed his app!
- petercooper 17y agoDonate another $100 and see what happens then! :-)
- magoghm 17y agoGreat idea! I just donated another $100. Let's see what happens today...
- Psyonic 17y agoMy friend, you've stumbled on "The Secret!" ;)
- drewr 17y agoI put in $50 early on. Time for an ongoing contribution.
- ashr 17y agoI am happy to make my contribution to the Clojure fund. I am curious though, whether this model also becomes applicable to the other Clojure libraries and how would that play out.
- dkersten 17y agoI'll be sending him my donation later on tonight and hopefully working on some commercial Clojure apps over the next few months - if any of them take off, he'll be seeing more donations from me. Clojure is a great language and Rich deserves the contributions.
- magoghm 17y agoLots of tweets about funding Clojure: http://twitter.com/#search?q=clojure http://twitter.com/#search?q=clojure It makes me happy :)
- mcav 17y agoI fear that this show of support will only help in the short-term. I hope Rich can gather some sort of more predictable income, be it via solid corporate sponsorships and the like. Donations can be deceivingly flaky.
- jwr 17y agoClojure is the greatest piece of software I've seen done in the last several years. I will donate. I would much rather see Rich hack Clojure than waste time on consulting gigs. If you doubt this is the right thing to do, just listen to the man, any of his presentations will do.
- devin 17y agoI will be donating and have asked my relatives, in lieu of money, to donate money on my behalf to Clojure. I humbly suggest you do the same.
- KirinDave 17y agoClojure is exactly the kind of Lisp I want: a usable one. I donated $100, and I'll do so again in January.
- zephjc 17y agoHe needs to find a benevolent benefactor-company that will employ him to freely work on Clojure full-time, the way Google lets Guido work on Python full-time, and Rob Pike,Ken Thompson et al. (presumably) get to work on Go full-time.
- petercooper 17y agoI dare say with the right words from the right people, getting him to Google (or similar) wouldn't be particularly difficult given Clojure's growing status.
- petercooper 17y agoTo add, I believe there's some precedent here. Some of the key JRuby founders were hired by Sun (though they've now left), IronRuby's main developer was hired by Microsoft, and MacRuby's main developer was hired by Apple. Of course, there's a heavy platform slant on all of those examples..
- sandGorgon 17y agoI think people should also write in to companies that use Lisp/Scheme for business, in addition to donating - a campaign of sorts. Companies sponsoring Clojure will also have the side-effect of the project having a close interaction with industry and its needs.. which may accelerate its uptake.
- davidw 17y agoOpen source economics rears its ugly head once again. It's a fascinating and difficult problem.
- bpyne 17y agoI'm only evaluating Clojure right now but I respect greatly what you are doing. $100 gladly given.