7 ms·

But is it only BER? As mentioned int the article - what about Stuttgart 21 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_2

by nsns 11y ago

But is it only BER? As mentioned int the article - what about Stuttgart 21 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21) etc.? It is possible that these sites exist as new financial "loopholes", transferring tax-money from the government to private contractors without much oversight.

pantalaimon 11y ago
> It is possible that these sites exist as new financial "loopholes", transferring tax-money from the government to private contractors without much oversight. Yes, absolutely http://www.zeit.de/2015/29/imtech-flughafen-berlin-ber-verzoegerung http://www.zeit.de/2015/29/imtech-flughafen-berlin-ber-verzo... (article in German)
masklinn 11y ago
Stuttgart 21 is mentioned in the article, as well as an unnamed concert hall in Hamburg.
- germanier 11y ago
  The concert hall they refer to is the Elbphilharmonie which tripled its costs and construction time.
  - this_user 11y ago
    Costs for the tax payer are actually more than seven times (789M EUR) the original estimate at the time construction began (114M EUR in 2007). The initial estimate in 2005 was even lower, foreseeing costs of below 100M for the tax payer with donations supposed to cover the difference.
    - germanier 11y ago
      Thanks, somehow I had the wrong number remembered.
- adrianb 11y ago
  Probably this concert hall in Hamburg... terribly over-budget and late https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbe_Philharmonic_Hall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbe_Philharmonic_Hall
wycx 11y ago
Here in Australia we have found even more egregious ways of transferring money for failed transport infrastructure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_West_Link,_Melbourne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_West_Link,_Melbourne
- sjwright 11y ago
  In summary: sign $5b contracts for a highly politicized white elephant just weeks before a scheduled election where the government will be booted out of office.
  - wycx 11y ago
    ...and write into that contract compensation worth $100s of millions of dollars if a later goverment decides to cancel the project. Also, fail to release the unfavourable cost-benefit analysis.
CurtHagenlocher 11y ago
The complexity of that project is extremely high. My cousin is a civil engineer in Stuttgart, and he showed me a cross-sectional diagram of the affected area and the number of considerations seemed intractably high to me. But more generally, these kinds of megaprojects go over budget in nearly every part of the world -- especially when tunneling is involved. Here in the United States, two examples are Boston's "Big Dig" and Seattle's viaduct replacement.
- blakeyrat 11y ago
  In the interests of being pedantic, and local pride: Seattle's viaduct replacement isn't over budget-- yet. It's extremely likely to go over budget, but don't count the chickens before they've hatched. The last budget review came to the conclusion that it's still possible to finish the project as budgeted and scheduled. http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/seattle/2015/04/23/bertha-project-expert-review-report/26222949/ http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/seattle/2015/04/23/ber...
  - icelancer 11y ago
    >The last budget review came to the conclusion that it's still possible to finish the project as budgeted and scheduled. They should open a betting market on these types of lines. I'd love to see the fair odds. I'd take out a second mortgage if I could bet "This project will go over budget" if it was even odds.
  - oasisbob 11y ago
    On budget, perhaps. Maybe. On schedule? No. The report even says as much, page 4: "The tunnel project will not achieve STP’s original completion date of December 2015."
- RockyMcNuts 11y ago
  It's a bit rarer for an airport to fail a fire inspection 4 weeks before planned opening and then sit empty for years and billions in fixes.
- phkahler 11y ago
troymc 11y ago
Montreal had a different sort of airport fiasco in the 1960s and 70s: Mirabel Airport was supposed to replace the Dorval Airport as the "Eastern Gateway to Canada" for human travellers. Today, Mirabel is mostly a cargo airport. And the terminal is being demolished... Meanwhile, Dorval was expanded several times. Also, it was renamed the Trudeau airport. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montr%C3%A9al%E2%80%93Mirabel_International_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montr%C3%A9al%E2%80%93Mirabel_...
- betaby 11y ago
  Looks like it's perfect time to stop expanding Dorval airport and concentrate on Mirabel future. Montreal area is growing, number of flights is growing. Important reason why Mirabel can't be used efficiently - is a lack of railway connection to it. If Mirabel were reachable by train there would be flights from it. And terminal wan't be demolished by the way, there is big push back for that.
  - troymc 11y ago
    According to news reports, the Mirabel terminal demolition began in November 2014: http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/mirabel-airports-vacant-parking-and-terminal-reduced-to-rubble http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/mirabel-airports-...

by nsns 11y ago

pantalaimon 11y ago

> It is possible that these sites exist as new financial "loopholes", transferring tax-money from the government to private contractors without much oversight. Yes, absolutely http://www.zeit.de/2015/29/imtech-flughafen-berlin-ber-verzoegerung http://www.zeit.de/2015/29/imtech-flughafen-berlin-ber-verzo... (article in German)

masklinn 11y ago

Stuttgart 21 is mentioned in the article, as well as an unnamed concert hall in Hamburg.

germanier 11y ago
The concert hall they refer to is the Elbphilharmonie which tripled its costs and construction time.
- this_user 11y ago
  Costs for the tax payer are actually more than seven times (789M EUR) the original estimate at the time construction began (114M EUR in 2007). The initial estimate in 2005 was even lower, foreseeing costs of below 100M for the tax payer with donations supposed to cover the difference.
  - germanier 11y ago
    Thanks, somehow I had the wrong number remembered.
adrianb 11y ago
Probably this concert hall in Hamburg... terribly over-budget and late https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbe_Philharmonic_Hall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbe_Philharmonic_Hall

wycx 11y ago

Here in Australia we have found even more egregious ways of transferring money for failed transport infrastructure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_West_Link,_Melbourne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_West_Link,_Melbourne

sjwright 11y ago
In summary: sign $5b contracts for a highly politicized white elephant just weeks before a scheduled election where the government will be booted out of office.
- wycx 11y ago
  ...and write into that contract compensation worth $100s of millions of dollars if a later goverment decides to cancel the project. Also, fail to release the unfavourable cost-benefit analysis.

CurtHagenlocher 11y ago

The complexity of that project is extremely high. My cousin is a civil engineer in Stuttgart, and he showed me a cross-sectional diagram of the affected area and the number of considerations seemed intractably high to me. But more generally, these kinds of megaprojects go over budget in nearly every part of the world -- especially when tunneling is involved. Here in the United States, two examples are Boston's "Big Dig" and Seattle's viaduct replacement.

blakeyrat 11y ago
In the interests of being pedantic, and local pride: Seattle's viaduct replacement isn't over budget-- yet. It's extremely likely to go over budget, but don't count the chickens before they've hatched. The last budget review came to the conclusion that it's still possible to finish the project as budgeted and scheduled. http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/seattle/2015/04/23/bertha-project-expert-review-report/26222949/ http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/seattle/2015/04/23/ber...
- icelancer 11y ago
  >The last budget review came to the conclusion that it's still possible to finish the project as budgeted and scheduled. They should open a betting market on these types of lines. I'd love to see the fair odds. I'd take out a second mortgage if I could bet "This project will go over budget" if it was even odds.
- oasisbob 11y ago
  On budget, perhaps. Maybe. On schedule? No. The report even says as much, page 4: "The tunnel project will not achieve STP’s original completion date of December 2015."
RockyMcNuts 11y ago
It's a bit rarer for an airport to fail a fire inspection 4 weeks before planned opening and then sit empty for years and billions in fixes.
phkahler 11y ago

troymc 11y ago

Montreal had a different sort of airport fiasco in the 1960s and 70s: Mirabel Airport was supposed to replace the Dorval Airport as the "Eastern Gateway to Canada" for human travellers. Today, Mirabel is mostly a cargo airport. And the terminal is being demolished... Meanwhile, Dorval was expanded several times. Also, it was renamed the Trudeau airport. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montr%C3%A9al%E2%80%93Mirabel_International_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montr%C3%A9al%E2%80%93Mirabel_...

betaby 11y ago
Looks like it's perfect time to stop expanding Dorval airport and concentrate on Mirabel future. Montreal area is growing, number of flights is growing. Important reason why Mirabel can't be used efficiently - is a lack of railway connection to it. If Mirabel were reachable by train there would be flights from it. And terminal wan't be demolished by the way, there is big push back for that.
- troymc 11y ago
  According to news reports, the Mirabel terminal demolition began in November 2014: http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/mirabel-airports-vacant-parking-and-terminal-reduced-to-rubble http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/mirabel-airports-...