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> I’ve been giving it to students since 2008, and only one class has successfully mastered the challenge. That's a real surprise. The 2 points option is the sa

> I’ve been giving it to students since 2008, and only one class has successfully mastered the challenge. That's a real surprise. The 2 points option is the safe one, so everyone should go with that. Sure, I could assume that all (or most) of the other students think so and just get the 6 points myself. But then again, chances are that the other students think the same. So let's just go with the safer 2 points.

justonepost 11y ago
No, the safe option is to get organized and plan out who is going to chose the 6 points. That way, you know if you secretly chose the 6 points when you were supposed to get 2, you will get nothing. Then it doesn't become tragedy of commons, but rather an experiment with vandalism. The experiment, IMO, isn't valid. In RL tragedy of commons, the selfish don't really suffer that much .. it's usually everyone else that does.
- scottfr 11y ago
  You could have an auction for the 6 point slots, with the proceeds being divided and distributed to the group.
  - dogecoinbase 11y ago
    I was going to respond to the GP that you'd likely have a spoiler who would either be upset at not getting the six points and so secretly blow it up, or demand to be one of the six-pointers by publicly threatening to do so, but if there's money involved than that "likely" turns into a "definitely".
    - protomyth 11y ago
      I don't think you would have a spoiler, or someone who pulls the demand. I think the money would actually stop that pretty quickly because of the peer pressure ramifications from the others in the class. So, a 20 person class has 2 6pt slots. You take the bids and collect and hold the money. Grades are announced and then you hand out the money or give it back to the original bidders in case of betrayal. The spoiler is basically denying the points and cash to everyone. I get the feeling the identity of the spoiler would be found, if for no other reason all the innocent folks showing their papers. I hope the spoiler is graduating and not coming back because that type of crap is remembered.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
        protomyth 11y ago
        Well, if you instantly want to alienate the rest of the class and have no more classes with them or social events in common, then it might work. I would expect the rest of the class to all put 6pts down to deny them their "victory". Its not often someone makes a public declaration that they desire to remove themselves from their peers. Good to know for the rest of the students on any assigned group projects. [edit: dammit parent had a valid point - ah shucks]
- andresmanz 11y ago
  I'm sorry, I assumed you're not allowed to organize. You're right, of course, at least if everyone in the group is reliable.
- fweespeech 11y ago
  > The experiment, IMO, isn't valid. In RL tragedy of commons, the selfish don't really suffer that much .. it's usually everyone else that does. Actually, I'd say that increases the validity since they do it even tho they know it is more likely to have negative consequences than RL.
- Amorymeltzer 11y ago
  No, the safe option is to do well in the class and thus not give a fuck about a measly 2 or 6 points on one (admittedly important) paper. I've had teachers offer various concepts like this over the years. One gave out simple vouchers for various points as awards for "fun" "games". I asked him if I applied ten points toward a 97/100 exam, would it cap at 100 or go to 107? He told me to sell the voucher to someone who needed it more. Best lesson I ever got.
- bradleyjg 11y ago
  You want something that is perceived to be fair in order to minimize the chances of someone deciding he'd rather get nothing than 2 points. If I were in the class I'd propose a weighted lottery where everyone had a chance to be one of the sixes but those with worse grades had a somewhat better chance. While there might be disgruntlement over the weight, I'd guess it'd be less severe than if someone that an entire fairness factor was being ignored. An interesting questions would be what to do if someone issued an ultimatum to the group "give me one of the sixes or I will ruin it for everyone". I'd think in that case every move ends with no one getting any points.
- s73v3r 11y ago
  "No, the safe option is to get organized and plan out who is going to chose the 6 points." If you think that's a safe option, you've clearly never dealt with large groups.
- deelowe 11y ago
  Yep. A better example would be to make it so that 10% of the students get 6 extra points and the rest get none if more than 10% choose 6 extra points. This way everyone that chooses 2 is punished if the go over.
baddox 11y ago
I'm wondering what "mastered the challenge" means. To maximize utility (naively assuming that points == utils), you want exactly 10% of the class to choose 6 points, and the rest to choose 2. Perhaps a "perfectly cooperative" class would give the larger payout to the students with the lowest grades.

justonepost 11y ago

No, the safe option is to get organized and plan out who is going to chose the 6 points. That way, you know if you secretly chose the 6 points when you were supposed to get 2, you will get nothing. Then it doesn't become tragedy of commons, but rather an experiment with vandalism. The experiment, IMO, isn't valid. In RL tragedy of commons, the selfish don't really suffer that much .. it's usually everyone else that does.

scottfr 11y ago
You could have an auction for the 6 point slots, with the proceeds being divided and distributed to the group.
- dogecoinbase 11y ago
  I was going to respond to the GP that you'd likely have a spoiler who would either be upset at not getting the six points and so secretly blow it up, or demand to be one of the six-pointers by publicly threatening to do so, but if there's money involved than that "likely" turns into a "definitely".
  - protomyth 11y ago
    I don't think you would have a spoiler, or someone who pulls the demand. I think the money would actually stop that pretty quickly because of the peer pressure ramifications from the others in the class. So, a 20 person class has 2 6pt slots. You take the bids and collect and hold the money. Grades are announced and then you hand out the money or give it back to the original bidders in case of betrayal. The spoiler is basically denying the points and cash to everyone. I get the feeling the identity of the spoiler would be found, if for no other reason all the innocent folks showing their papers. I hope the spoiler is graduating and not coming back because that type of crap is remembered.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
      - protomyth 11y ago
        Well, if you instantly want to alienate the rest of the class and have no more classes with them or social events in common, then it might work. I would expect the rest of the class to all put 6pts down to deny them their "victory". Its not often someone makes a public declaration that they desire to remove themselves from their peers. Good to know for the rest of the students on any assigned group projects. [edit: dammit parent had a valid point - ah shucks]
andresmanz 11y ago
I'm sorry, I assumed you're not allowed to organize. You're right, of course, at least if everyone in the group is reliable.
fweespeech 11y ago
> The experiment, IMO, isn't valid. In RL tragedy of commons, the selfish don't really suffer that much .. it's usually everyone else that does. Actually, I'd say that increases the validity since they do it even tho they know it is more likely to have negative consequences than RL.
Amorymeltzer 11y ago
No, the safe option is to do well in the class and thus not give a fuck about a measly 2 or 6 points on one (admittedly important) paper. I've had teachers offer various concepts like this over the years. One gave out simple vouchers for various points as awards for "fun" "games". I asked him if I applied ten points toward a 97/100 exam, would it cap at 100 or go to 107? He told me to sell the voucher to someone who needed it more. Best lesson I ever got.
bradleyjg 11y ago
You want something that is perceived to be fair in order to minimize the chances of someone deciding he'd rather get nothing than 2 points. If I were in the class I'd propose a weighted lottery where everyone had a chance to be one of the sixes but those with worse grades had a somewhat better chance. While there might be disgruntlement over the weight, I'd guess it'd be less severe than if someone that an entire fairness factor was being ignored. An interesting questions would be what to do if someone issued an ultimatum to the group "give me one of the sixes or I will ruin it for everyone". I'd think in that case every move ends with no one getting any points.
s73v3r 11y ago
"No, the safe option is to get organized and plan out who is going to chose the 6 points." If you think that's a safe option, you've clearly never dealt with large groups.
deelowe 11y ago
Yep. A better example would be to make it so that 10% of the students get 6 extra points and the rest get none if more than 10% choose 6 extra points. This way everyone that chooses 2 is punished if the go over.

baddox 11y ago

I'm wondering what "mastered the challenge" means. To maximize utility (naively assuming that points == utils), you want exactly 10% of the class to choose 6 points, and the rest to choose 2. Perhaps a "perfectly cooperative" class would give the larger payout to the students with the lowest grades.