4 ms·

In Defense of the Floppy Disk [video]

33 points by Adams472 11y ago

Adams472 11y ago
Really interesting talk. Skip to the last 5 minutes for the history, and appropriate use, of the "hamburger" menu icon.
qnaal 11y ago
I wonder which of the dozens of scripts on that page looks up and inserts the youtube embed from godknowswhere https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoHbGVJItMQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoHbGVJItMQ
Aldo_MX 11y ago
TBH, I wouldn't be so surprised that teenagers know that a floppy icon means save, because they use text processors to do their homework, and at least the most popular software (Microsoft Word) emphasises so much that particular icon. Although being honest, I got impressed by the "tape" icon used for voicemail.
qnaal 11y ago
disappointed she didn't include results for that download icon that looks like an inbox also I do think a nicely simplified telegraph key could be an excellent 'send' or 'communication' icon
vacri 11y ago
The gist of the talk is right, but there are a lot of underlying errors. Kids today know that 'floppy disk' means save because... floppy disk has 'always' been the ideograph for save. They're not functionally mapping it to the physical device. It's a bit like people know that 'a' means the first letter of the English alphabet because... it's an ideograph that means that by convention - even though in handwriting it's written differently. People have been trained to understand what that shape means. There's lots of these errors of understanding throughout the talk, but the biggest one is the rolodex card icon. It looks like an ID card more than a rolodex card, since the latter do not have portraits on them. Check it out on a google image search; some companies make cards for you with their logo on it, but most cards are blank for your writing, and there is no portraiture. Presented with that icon, photo-on-the-left, text-on-the-right looks like a pretty default ID card. The underlying point is right - that the teenagers recognise the meaning of the icon - the but rationalisation for why is incorrect. So why do teenagers understand that floppy means save? Because 'convention'. Not because "they're smart, and backward-map old technology". If we had a different icon for 'save', and one company just today started using the floppy, then no-one would understand it.
- Turbo_hedgehog 11y ago
  How do 90%+ know what physical object it represents though?
  - vacri 11y ago
    I imagine because during their training of what the icon means, they will have been told about the reference. It's like how we all know the Rutherford model of the atom and what it represents, despite no human every actually seeing one in person... and it not being quite correct. Show someone an icon made from the Rutherford model and ask what it represents, and they'll say "an atom". It's about training. Look at this picture[1]. If you made an icon from this simple structure, do you think people would understand what it meant? It's a pretty unknown bit of technology, but what it does has a clear analogue to a common function on websites. If only one site used it, it would be confusing. But if it were used by almost everyone, all through your growing up, you'd both understand the icon, and that it was shaped that way because it's meant to look like this object. [1] http://www.reon-tuellensiebe.de/_EN/kategorien/Home/dateien/tuellensieb_detail.jpg http://www.reon-tuellensiebe.de/_EN/kategorien/Home/dateien/...
    - thristian 11y ago
      OK, I looked up what that thing is, and while it's pretty neat (and probably much less popular now so many people drink coffee) I'm not seeing the "clear analogue to a common function on websites". Can you tell me what website function you're thinking of?
      - vacri 11y ago
        'filter' :) Perhaps I should have said software rather than websites specifically, since websites tend to conflate both 'search' and 'filter' into the one function. They are pretty similar.
- travjones 11y ago
  I think you're adding unnecessary complexity into the analysis. Whether we call it a floppy disk or refoofoofah, clicking on that icon saved your document. Thus, we would expect this behavior to generalize given a similar icon in a slightly different environment/app (stimulus generalization). Using the word "meaning" here is problematic because it comes with some intellectual baggage (e.g, connotation). What does anything "mean" really? The most straight forward answer to me is it "means" what it does. That is, function is meaning, especially in UX.
InclinedPlane 11y ago
Nothing wrong with the Floppy Disk icon. It's unique, which is all that matters. It no longer represents a physical thing that people use routinely, not a big deal. Now, if we could only figure out how to have search and zoom use different icons...
- function_seven 11y ago
  Some applications use binoculars to indicate search. Yet that could easily me mistaken for zoom, though... Iconifying things is hard.
- tomerico 11y ago
  a good zoom icon is a magnifying glass with a + (or -) sign inside
mc808 11y ago
Regarding the hamburger icon, I suspect most people have seen it many places and recognize that it can be clicked/tapped, but they interpret it as "here be dragons" which is why it always scores so low on A/B testing. Even knowing what it's just an innocuous menu, I rarely sneak a peek at what might be lurking there unless the function I'm seeking isn't to be found anywhere else.

33 points by Adams472 11y ago

Really interesting talk. Skip to the last 5 minutes for the history, and appropriate use, of the "hamburger" menu icon.

qnaal 11y ago

I wonder which of the dozens of scripts on that page looks up and inserts the youtube embed from godknowswhere https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoHbGVJItMQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoHbGVJItMQ

Aldo_MX 11y ago

TBH, I wouldn't be so surprised that teenagers know that a floppy icon means save, because they use text processors to do their homework, and at least the most popular software (Microsoft Word) emphasises so much that particular icon. Although being honest, I got impressed by the "tape" icon used for voicemail.

qnaal 11y ago

disappointed she didn't include results for that download icon that looks like an inbox also I do think a nicely simplified telegraph key could be an excellent 'send' or 'communication' icon

vacri 11y ago

The gist of the talk is right, but there are a lot of underlying errors. Kids today know that 'floppy disk' means save because... floppy disk has 'always' been the ideograph for save. They're not functionally mapping it to the physical device. It's a bit like people know that 'a' means the first letter of the English alphabet because... it's an ideograph that means that by convention - even though in handwriting it's written differently. People have been trained to understand what that shape means. There's lots of these errors of understanding throughout the talk, but the biggest one is the rolodex card icon. It looks like an ID card more than a rolodex card, since the latter do not have portraits on them. Check it out on a google image search; some companies make cards for you with their logo on it, but most cards are blank for your writing, and there is no portraiture. Presented with that icon, photo-on-the-left, text-on-the-right looks like a pretty default ID card. The underlying point is right - that the teenagers recognise the meaning of the icon - the but rationalisation for why is incorrect. So why do teenagers understand that floppy means save? Because 'convention'. Not because "they're smart, and backward-map old technology". If we had a different icon for 'save', and one company just today started using the floppy, then no-one would understand it.

Turbo_hedgehog 11y ago
How do 90%+ know what physical object it represents though?
- vacri 11y ago
  I imagine because during their training of what the icon means, they will have been told about the reference. It's like how we all know the Rutherford model of the atom and what it represents, despite no human every actually seeing one in person... and it not being quite correct. Show someone an icon made from the Rutherford model and ask what it represents, and they'll say "an atom". It's about training. Look at this picture[1]. If you made an icon from this simple structure, do you think people would understand what it meant? It's a pretty unknown bit of technology, but what it does has a clear analogue to a common function on websites. If only one site used it, it would be confusing. But if it were used by almost everyone, all through your growing up, you'd both understand the icon, and that it was shaped that way because it's meant to look like this object. [1] http://www.reon-tuellensiebe.de/_EN/kategorien/Home/dateien/tuellensieb_detail.jpg http://www.reon-tuellensiebe.de/_EN/kategorien/Home/dateien/...
  - thristian 11y ago
    OK, I looked up what that thing is, and while it's pretty neat (and probably much less popular now so many people drink coffee) I'm not seeing the "clear analogue to a common function on websites". Can you tell me what website function you're thinking of?
    - vacri 11y ago
      'filter' :) Perhaps I should have said software rather than websites specifically, since websites tend to conflate both 'search' and 'filter' into the one function. They are pretty similar.
travjones 11y ago
I think you're adding unnecessary complexity into the analysis. Whether we call it a floppy disk or refoofoofah, clicking on that icon saved your document. Thus, we would expect this behavior to generalize given a similar icon in a slightly different environment/app (stimulus generalization). Using the word "meaning" here is problematic because it comes with some intellectual baggage (e.g, connotation). What does anything "mean" really? The most straight forward answer to me is it "means" what it does. That is, function is meaning, especially in UX.

InclinedPlane 11y ago

Nothing wrong with the Floppy Disk icon. It's unique, which is all that matters. It no longer represents a physical thing that people use routinely, not a big deal. Now, if we could only figure out how to have search and zoom use different icons...

function_seven 11y ago
Some applications use binoculars to indicate search. Yet that could easily me mistaken for zoom, though... Iconifying things is hard.
tomerico 11y ago
a good zoom icon is a magnifying glass with a + (or -) sign inside

mc808 11y ago

Regarding the hamburger icon, I suspect most people have seen it many places and recognize that it can be clicked/tapped, but they interpret it as "here be dragons" which is why it always scores so low on A/B testing. Even knowing what it's just an innocuous menu, I rarely sneak a peek at what might be lurking there unless the function I'm seeking isn't to be found anywhere else.