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This is very cool, the integration of hardware, software, social and marketing is perfect. Many hours spent putting all the pieces together and testing and twea

This is very cool, the integration of hardware, software, social and marketing is perfect. Many hours spent putting all the pieces together and testing and tweaking, but it makes me wonder if we are wasting talent? I love what BREAKFAST does as much as the next person and they are an extremely talented team, but all of this amazing technology and innovation is going towards selling products for a brand that totally disregards factory workers wage rights so much so that F21 were "sued by the United States Department of Labor for ignoring a subpoena requesting information on how much the company’s suppliers pays the workers who make its clothes"[0] This reminds me of the recent article posted on HN "Web Design: The First 100 Years"[1]. How many of these underpaid factory workers are the greatest minds of our time? "We live in a world now where not millions but billions of people work in rice fields, textile factories, where children grow up in appalling poverty. Of those billions, how many are the greatest minds of our time? How many deserve better than they get? What if instead of dreaming about changing the world with tomorrow's technology, we used today's technology and let the world change us? Why do we need to obsess on artificial intelligence, when we're wasting so much natural intelligence?"[1] [0] http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15799 http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15799 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9920121 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9920121

josu 11y ago
While I understand the point you are making, I would argue that the textile industry is a necessary evil for many countries. It's pretty well explained in this article: >According to the comprehensive “Ashgate Companion to the History of Textile Workers,” a study of 21 countries over 350 years, nearly every nation suffered through its T-shirt phase differently. Argentina’s brutal encomienda system literally worked indigenous laborers to death. The Hapsburg monarchy’s T-shirt phase coincided with its own collapse. Japan’s progress was slowed by a world war; Germany’s was all but destroyed by two. New England’s textile workers had it relatively good; if conditions didn’t improve, they could threaten to leave for the frontier. >All these countries, however, experienced the same broad phenomenon. Lex Heerma van Voss, an editor of the “Ashgate Companion,” told me that the T-shirt phase lasts only as long as there are large populations of farmers with few options. This is known as a “race to the bottom.” Factory owners compete by offering low prices, which are accomplished by paying workers tiny wages. Cutting costs by a few pennies per shirt may sound trivial, but mass-market brands find that even a slight increase in price destroys demand. And those pennies at wholesale become dollars at retail. >But once the factories have absorbed all these desperate farmers, they need to find a new competitive advantage. That usually involves making better products. When the T-shirt phase ends, a “race to the top” usually begins. Factories often shift to finer clothes, like dress shirts, which require skilled workers. This phase often involves the growth of unions and rising wages. It’s typically followed by one in which factory owners, forced to pay more, seek out ever more profitable lines of business. That can mean the move to low-end electronics assembly, then auto plants and maybe even airplane manufacturing. At the high end of the spectrum, you begin to see what the U.S. manufacturing economy is going through now — expensive products, like medical devices, which are often made by machines that are operated by highly skilled workers. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/19/magazine/economic-recovery-made-in-bangladesh.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/19/magazine/economic-recovery... As long as there is no slave work, this is, people are working in these factories "voluntarily", it may be the best option they have. These are people maximizing their utility and deciding to work for USD50-200/month with 6 day weeks and 12 hour days. Yes, it sucks, and I wish they had other options, but I'm not sure that boycotting F21 would work in their favor. As the article sadly states, this seems like a necessary phase.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  Ex post facto rationalization. How is it voluntary (note, even you had to use quotes around this word) if it's the best option they have and/or they have no other options? Just because some humans in some part of the world at some time did something, does not mean that many other humans also have to do it.
  - josu 11y ago
    It's voluntary because they can chose the second best option: Farming, fishing... And the second best option would have nothing to do with F21 or any other company that uses sweatshops. If you look at it from that vantage point, F21 is giving them a new option that they didn't have before. However, that's not the point I'm trying to make, since I believe that sweatshops have negative externatilities that I haven't accounted for.
    - jsprogrammer 11y ago
      Choosing anything other than the best option is irrational. Why would I choose second best over best? It's not really a choice, just a word game to rationalize disturbing facts.
      - josu 11y ago
        I don't understand your point. You are arguing that working for 21F is the best option, yet you oppose companies opening up sweatshops in developing countries?

josu 11y ago

While I understand the point you are making, I would argue that the textile industry is a necessary evil for many countries. It's pretty well explained in this article: >According to the comprehensive “Ashgate Companion to the History of Textile Workers,” a study of 21 countries over 350 years, nearly every nation suffered through its T-shirt phase differently. Argentina’s brutal encomienda system literally worked indigenous laborers to death. The Hapsburg monarchy’s T-shirt phase coincided with its own collapse. Japan’s progress was slowed by a world war; Germany’s was all but destroyed by two. New England’s textile workers had it relatively good; if conditions didn’t improve, they could threaten to leave for the frontier. >All these countries, however, experienced the same broad phenomenon. Lex Heerma van Voss, an editor of the “Ashgate Companion,” told me that the T-shirt phase lasts only as long as there are large populations of farmers with few options. This is known as a “race to the bottom.” Factory owners compete by offering low prices, which are accomplished by paying workers tiny wages. Cutting costs by a few pennies per shirt may sound trivial, but mass-market brands find that even a slight increase in price destroys demand. And those pennies at wholesale become dollars at retail. >But once the factories have absorbed all these desperate farmers, they need to find a new competitive advantage. That usually involves making better products. When the T-shirt phase ends, a “race to the top” usually begins. Factories often shift to finer clothes, like dress shirts, which require skilled workers. This phase often involves the growth of unions and rising wages. It’s typically followed by one in which factory owners, forced to pay more, seek out ever more profitable lines of business. That can mean the move to low-end electronics assembly, then auto plants and maybe even airplane manufacturing. At the high end of the spectrum, you begin to see what the U.S. manufacturing economy is going through now — expensive products, like medical devices, which are often made by machines that are operated by highly skilled workers. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/19/magazine/economic-recovery-made-in-bangladesh.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/19/magazine/economic-recovery... As long as there is no slave work, this is, people are working in these factories "voluntarily", it may be the best option they have. These are people maximizing their utility and deciding to work for USD50-200/month with 6 day weeks and 12 hour days. Yes, it sucks, and I wish they had other options, but I'm not sure that boycotting F21 would work in their favor. As the article sadly states, this seems like a necessary phase.

jsprogrammer 11y ago
Ex post facto rationalization. How is it voluntary (note, even you had to use quotes around this word) if it's the best option they have and/or they have no other options? Just because some humans in some part of the world at some time did something, does not mean that many other humans also have to do it.
- josu 11y ago
  It's voluntary because they can chose the second best option: Farming, fishing... And the second best option would have nothing to do with F21 or any other company that uses sweatshops. If you look at it from that vantage point, F21 is giving them a new option that they didn't have before. However, that's not the point I'm trying to make, since I believe that sweatshops have negative externatilities that I haven't accounted for.
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    Choosing anything other than the best option is irrational. Why would I choose second best over best? It's not really a choice, just a word game to rationalize disturbing facts.
    - josu 11y ago
      I don't understand your point. You are arguing that working for 21F is the best option, yet you oppose companies opening up sweatshops in developing countries?