4 ms·

> centuries of experience is not to be sneezed at in any profession. You'd be surprised how much of the working knowledge of a whole range of fields dates back

> centuries of experience is not to be sneezed at in any profession. You'd be surprised how much of the working knowledge of a whole range of fields dates back to the middle ages. One of the holy grails of Western smithing books came out in the time of woodcuts. I totally agree, it's just that, are zero people in the US good enough to make these knives? Does it require such expertise that if your father wasn't a knife forging expert, it's inconceivable that you could otherwise learn or be taught how to do this to make a good enough knife? Why can't I (say, a decent smith in the US) read a book on this technique, do it for a couple of years and churn out the same quality knives? I'm sure the 100 year old Japanese artisan smiths of Lothlorien make more subtly elegant knives, but a chef, or at least the general market of in-the-know chefs who want a strongass knife, should not care about that to the point of needing to import them from Japan.

jarcane 11y ago
I don't think we even have any analog to it in the US anymore. Japan still has a strong tradition of apprenticeship and a cultural appreciation for craftsmanship that, well, the US doesn't even have the history for. Many of the Japanese smiths who make these blades started apprenticing from childhood, from someone else who was apprenticed since childhood, and on and on back centuries. And the custom in such apprenticeship is that you might expect to spend years doing the same simple task before being allowed to move on to the next. For an analogy: some of the best sushi chefs using those knives were themselves apprentices who spent years just learning how to make rice, before they were even allowed to touch a piece of fish. That kind of practice is hard to compete with unless you've been through it yourself, and chances are if you're old enough to post on this website, you are already behind. Now there are smiths, plenty of them in the states. Many very good ones indeed, even some who have had some training or study with the Japanese. The focus though, tends to be on swords or hunting/outdoor or fighting knives. Not many bother with kitchen knives, the demand isn't high and the requirements are different, and who would they sell them to? Here in the states they'd have to compete with a culture that can by a chef's knife for $15 from any restaurant supply store. House knives are cheap but durable, and easily replaced if they go too dull. If you want good knives, you buy your own import, is the general rule among chefs. Manufactured, probably from a European make, or handcrafted from Japan if you're a hardcore sushi chef. So it's not that isn't theoretically possible, there's just a hell of a lot of economic factors preventing it.
buttermilk 11y ago
Again, what @jarcane said. There are more than zero people in the US making great kitchen knives. The number is, fortunately, growing. I'm in talks with two US makers and a Canadian, in addition to a couple from Europe. As has already been said, it is a matter of economics and culture. High-end American makers are able to consistently get more money from outdoor knives. Not to discredit that category of knives, but rough outdoor knives can be made much more easily and emphasize toughness and wear resistance and aesthetics at the upper end, with subtle elements of cutting performance being difficult to evaluate. We have a long history of sought-after outdoor and pocket knives in the US. For this, Japanese knifemakers turn to the US and studied with people like Bob Loveless. Despite outdoor and pocket knives being cherished, the orientation to kitchen knives in the US has long been held as utilitarian. My guess as to why? Because kitchen knives were tools for women, and chefs (a class of people long thought of as outcasts) bought from Europe when they cared. The client base of most all custom or upgraded or modified consumable tools/vehicles/electronics/etc. is male dominated. We don't have a strong history of swordmaking and we readily abandoned them in favor of guns. Guns not being a significant part of Japan's industrial history, the Japanese continued their craft of swords until public carry was outlawed. A lot of these multi-generational swordmaking families found a market in making kitchen knives. I would totally support you in learning knifemaking. I think it's an awesome craft. Reading about how to make high-performing kitchen knives though, might first require learning to read Japanese. Great kitchen knives can be made within your first few years, but it's rare, and at the end your knives will be more expensive than their Japanese counterparts. Chefs don't need to import knives from Japan, they can get them all over the US. Sure we want a strong knife in our restaurant kitchens, but it's a tool that we're attached to for 16 hours a day. It's an extension of who we are as chefs, and you can tell a lot about one based on their knives. I demanded finesse from my cooks, and it's hard to understand finesse with a hamhanded tool.

jarcane 11y ago

I don't think we even have any analog to it in the US anymore. Japan still has a strong tradition of apprenticeship and a cultural appreciation for craftsmanship that, well, the US doesn't even have the history for. Many of the Japanese smiths who make these blades started apprenticing from childhood, from someone else who was apprenticed since childhood, and on and on back centuries. And the custom in such apprenticeship is that you might expect to spend years doing the same simple task before being allowed to move on to the next. For an analogy: some of the best sushi chefs using those knives were themselves apprentices who spent years just learning how to make rice, before they were even allowed to touch a piece of fish. That kind of practice is hard to compete with unless you've been through it yourself, and chances are if you're old enough to post on this website, you are already behind. Now there are smiths, plenty of them in the states. Many very good ones indeed, even some who have had some training or study with the Japanese. The focus though, tends to be on swords or hunting/outdoor or fighting knives. Not many bother with kitchen knives, the demand isn't high and the requirements are different, and who would they sell them to? Here in the states they'd have to compete with a culture that can by a chef's knife for $15 from any restaurant supply store. House knives are cheap but durable, and easily replaced if they go too dull. If you want good knives, you buy your own import, is the general rule among chefs. Manufactured, probably from a European make, or handcrafted from Japan if you're a hardcore sushi chef. So it's not that isn't theoretically possible, there's just a hell of a lot of economic factors preventing it.

buttermilk 11y ago

Again, what @jarcane said. There are more than zero people in the US making great kitchen knives. The number is, fortunately, growing. I'm in talks with two US makers and a Canadian, in addition to a couple from Europe. As has already been said, it is a matter of economics and culture. High-end American makers are able to consistently get more money from outdoor knives. Not to discredit that category of knives, but rough outdoor knives can be made much more easily and emphasize toughness and wear resistance and aesthetics at the upper end, with subtle elements of cutting performance being difficult to evaluate. We have a long history of sought-after outdoor and pocket knives in the US. For this, Japanese knifemakers turn to the US and studied with people like Bob Loveless. Despite outdoor and pocket knives being cherished, the orientation to kitchen knives in the US has long been held as utilitarian. My guess as to why? Because kitchen knives were tools for women, and chefs (a class of people long thought of as outcasts) bought from Europe when they cared. The client base of most all custom or upgraded or modified consumable tools/vehicles/electronics/etc. is male dominated. We don't have a strong history of swordmaking and we readily abandoned them in favor of guns. Guns not being a significant part of Japan's industrial history, the Japanese continued their craft of swords until public carry was outlawed. A lot of these multi-generational swordmaking families found a market in making kitchen knives. I would totally support you in learning knifemaking. I think it's an awesome craft. Reading about how to make high-performing kitchen knives though, might first require learning to read Japanese. Great kitchen knives can be made within your first few years, but it's rare, and at the end your knives will be more expensive than their Japanese counterparts. Chefs don't need to import knives from Japan, they can get them all over the US. Sure we want a strong knife in our restaurant kitchens, but it's a tool that we're attached to for 16 hours a day. It's an extension of who we are as chefs, and you can tell a lot about one based on their knives. I demanded finesse from my cooks, and it's hard to understand finesse with a hamhanded tool.