5 ms·

Being swayed by superficial cues is not irrational if they correlate to the underlying qualities you are trying to judge. And, of course, prior information shou

by blfr 11y ago

Being swayed by superficial cues is not irrational if they correlate to the underlying qualities you are trying to judge. And, of course, prior information should change the way you view new information. I don't see how it can do more harm than good if you can do better than chance. Neither would I be so confident that I can do better than millions of years of evolution, especially by reading resumes. We can guess what particular traits make people seem less trustworthy. For example, supposedly men with wider faces are more likely to act immorally (deceive, cheat). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21733897 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21733897

drzaiusapelord 11y ago
"This gene causes this $complex_behavior" is practically modern phrenology. These types of studies are questionable and controversial. Not to mention unethical behaviors are often cultural constructs that in one culture is fine (being gay in the US) and another considered unethical (being gay in Russia.) Not too long ago many scientists, including HN's beloved Nikola Tesla, were loudly advocating for further and deeper eugenics laws because "obviously" the negro or the Jew was a sub-human. We're still seeing some of this today with "genetics" replacing "characteristics." >"As sex differences in facial structure, generally, are at least partially due to increased testosterone concentrations in boys, testosterone likely plays a role in determining facial WHR, specifically, as well." This is more academia-led "War on Boys." This kid has extra testosterone? He must be a rapist or a murderer. Shame the "rational scientific" crowd never seems to show skepticism at truly questionable research because it was published somewhere, so it must be true!
- nitrogen 11y ago
  I think you're taking down a strawman amalgam of misconceptions that few people, if any, actually believe all at once.
slipjack 11y ago
> Being swayed by superficial cues is not irrational if they correlate to the underlying qualities you are trying to judge. I'd be pretty careful about this line of argument. What we think of as a clue to underlying qualities is cultural... for example, one of the biggest superficial differences in people is the color of their skin. What underlying qualities does skin color clue us in to? In the US and Europe, we have a long history of trying to find the ties between visible and non-visible qualities. Phrenology, eugenics, Blacks as having "inferior intelligence", the belief that women are prone to hysteria - all were attempts to find that link.
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  The history of seeking correlations between visible and invisible qualities has been largely successful. For instance, it's fairly well known that border collies can be successfully trained to herd sheep, but wolves cannot. Experiments have provided significant evidence that these behavioral traits are genetic: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/thoughtful-animal/dogs-but-not-wolves-use-humans-as-tools/ http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/thoughtful-animal/dogs-b... Further, in the US and Europe, we also have a long history of trying to find substances which kill infections. These failed until we found penicillin. Citing a few false claims (not all the ones you've cited are even known to be false) and using this as evidence that all such claims must be false is a logical fallacy.
  - slipjack 11y ago
    Do you have any studies about humans? Because I'm not aware of many that are clear-cut (of course, there's environment-gene interplay, but that is way more murky than anything talked about in the article or in the OP's comment). I'm not saying that those claims were false and therefore all such claims are false. I'm saying that in the West we've spent a lot of time trying to prove that non-white men are inferior in different ways. Arguments like "unconscious bias comes from evolution" ignore that long history of non-white-male qualities being judged inferior.
    - yummyfajitas 11y ago
      There are quite a few studies about humans, fruit flies also make an appearance (since you can rapidly breed them). All in all, there is quite a bit of evidence that genetics can influence animal behavior both across and within species. Based on my reading, I'm quite confident in my belief that genetics explain at least 25% of behavioral differences. I haven't been convinced that it explains 50-90% (as some folks claim). I've appended below a dump of papers which I've either read or are in my queue. Most results in this space find that white (particularly if you exclude Ashkenazi Jews) people are not the superior race, at least in popular metrics like intelligence, criminality, drug use and divorce. Those westerners trying to "prove that non-white men are inferior" probably should have realized that isn't how evidence works: http://lesswrong.com/lw/ii/conservation_of_expected_evidence/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/ii/conservation_of_expected_evidence... http://ussc.edu.au/ussc/assets/media/docs/publications/44_Hatemi_Trends.pdf http://ussc.edu.au/ussc/assets/media/docs/publications/44_Ha... http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v47/n7/full/ng.3285.html http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v47/n7/full/ng.3285.html https://infotomb.com/g99o4.pdf https://infotomb.com/g99o4.pdf https://infotomb.com/sy7jn.pdf https://infotomb.com/sy7jn.pdf http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/57897#files-area http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/57897#files-area https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/38881/HECER_DP364.pdf https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/38881/HECER... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1758921 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1758921 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/neu.10160/pdf http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/neu.10160/pdf http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/opinion/45_Hatemi_BehaviorGenetics.pdf http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/opinion/45_Hatemi_... http://unamusementpark.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/bouchard-genetic-influence.pdf http://unamusementpark.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/boucha... http://www.matthewckeller.com/16.Hatemi.et.al.2010.Nuc.fam.ajps.pdf http://www.matthewckeller.com/16.Hatemi.et.al.2010.Nuc.fam.a... https://infotomb.com/evkop.pdf https://infotomb.com/evkop.pdf https://infotomb.com/cwnp1.pdf https://infotomb.com/cwnp1.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2923822/#!po=50.0000 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2923822/#!po=50....
yummyfajitas 11y ago
It's been shown in at least one experiment that superficial appearances are correlated with underlying qualities. Specifically, simply by looking at two people one can choose the one better at math 55% of the time! https://mega.co.nz/#!6UxzVLIA!BVUOujU76VnhZM45QE4N2oFz0yLRTfgO4Mj6GRgT9wU https://mega.co.nz/#!6UxzVLIA!BVUOujU76VnhZM45QE4N2oFz0yLRTf... The title and abstract of the study (discussing gender stereotypes) more or less ignores the truly interesting bits of this study. Gender stereotypes reduce profits by 0.1% but discrimination by appearance increases profits by 11.4%! Obviously actual math tests are better than appearance.
- firethief 11y ago
  I'd rather not install an app to read that, but presumably they are measuring who is better educated in math. I would expect the correlation to be mostly explained by different ethnic groups in the location the study was conducted having different access to education, cultural values, and expectations placed on them. It would go a long way toward distinguishing between those two possibilities if a computer judged the faces - find the eigenface(s) of different mathematical ability levels and see if there's a lot of correlation between those and ethnicity, or if features alone are the predictor. Even if it is features alone though, I would expect a major involvement of education and self-fulfilling expectations: take a starting state where there is no correlation between facial features and math aptitude. Everyone would have their own beliefs about what faces are good at math (humans always see patterns). Some of those beliefs would happen to be similar, so people with certain features would be steered more toward math. As time passes, the bias becomes more legitimate and more self-perpetuating. The end result is a socially-imposed link between particular visible traits and ability in math.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    You don't need to install an app, if you do the right pattern of clicks you can download it. But here is an ungated preprint (wasn't available when I first downloaded the paper): http://www.ereuben.net/research/StereotypesWomensCareer.pdf http://www.ereuben.net/research/StereotypesWomensCareer.pdf They could indeed be observing that "asians are good at math" stereotypes are a useful predictor, the study doesn't really give enough info to determine that one way or the other.

by blfr 11y ago

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

"This gene causes this $complex_behavior" is practically modern phrenology. These types of studies are questionable and controversial. Not to mention unethical behaviors are often cultural constructs that in one culture is fine (being gay in the US) and another considered unethical (being gay in Russia.) Not too long ago many scientists, including HN's beloved Nikola Tesla, were loudly advocating for further and deeper eugenics laws because "obviously" the negro or the Jew was a sub-human. We're still seeing some of this today with "genetics" replacing "characteristics." >"As sex differences in facial structure, generally, are at least partially due to increased testosterone concentrations in boys, testosterone likely plays a role in determining facial WHR, specifically, as well." This is more academia-led "War on Boys." This kid has extra testosterone? He must be a rapist or a murderer. Shame the "rational scientific" crowd never seems to show skepticism at truly questionable research because it was published somewhere, so it must be true!

nitrogen 11y ago
I think you're taking down a strawman amalgam of misconceptions that few people, if any, actually believe all at once.

slipjack 11y ago

> Being swayed by superficial cues is not irrational if they correlate to the underlying qualities you are trying to judge. I'd be pretty careful about this line of argument. What we think of as a clue to underlying qualities is cultural... for example, one of the biggest superficial differences in people is the color of their skin. What underlying qualities does skin color clue us in to? In the US and Europe, we have a long history of trying to find the ties between visible and non-visible qualities. Phrenology, eugenics, Blacks as having "inferior intelligence", the belief that women are prone to hysteria - all were attempts to find that link.

yummyfajitas 11y ago
The history of seeking correlations between visible and invisible qualities has been largely successful. For instance, it's fairly well known that border collies can be successfully trained to herd sheep, but wolves cannot. Experiments have provided significant evidence that these behavioral traits are genetic: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/thoughtful-animal/dogs-but-not-wolves-use-humans-as-tools/ http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/thoughtful-animal/dogs-b... Further, in the US and Europe, we also have a long history of trying to find substances which kill infections. These failed until we found penicillin. Citing a few false claims (not all the ones you've cited are even known to be false) and using this as evidence that all such claims must be false is a logical fallacy.
- slipjack 11y ago
  Do you have any studies about humans? Because I'm not aware of many that are clear-cut (of course, there's environment-gene interplay, but that is way more murky than anything talked about in the article or in the OP's comment). I'm not saying that those claims were false and therefore all such claims are false. I'm saying that in the West we've spent a lot of time trying to prove that non-white men are inferior in different ways. Arguments like "unconscious bias comes from evolution" ignore that long history of non-white-male qualities being judged inferior.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    There are quite a few studies about humans, fruit flies also make an appearance (since you can rapidly breed them). All in all, there is quite a bit of evidence that genetics can influence animal behavior both across and within species. Based on my reading, I'm quite confident in my belief that genetics explain at least 25% of behavioral differences. I haven't been convinced that it explains 50-90% (as some folks claim). I've appended below a dump of papers which I've either read or are in my queue. Most results in this space find that white (particularly if you exclude Ashkenazi Jews) people are not the superior race, at least in popular metrics like intelligence, criminality, drug use and divorce. Those westerners trying to "prove that non-white men are inferior" probably should have realized that isn't how evidence works: http://lesswrong.com/lw/ii/conservation_of_expected_evidence/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/ii/conservation_of_expected_evidence... http://ussc.edu.au/ussc/assets/media/docs/publications/44_Hatemi_Trends.pdf http://ussc.edu.au/ussc/assets/media/docs/publications/44_Ha... http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v47/n7/full/ng.3285.html http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v47/n7/full/ng.3285.html https://infotomb.com/g99o4.pdf https://infotomb.com/g99o4.pdf https://infotomb.com/sy7jn.pdf https://infotomb.com/sy7jn.pdf http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/57897#files-area http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/57897#files-area https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/38881/HECER_DP364.pdf https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/38881/HECER... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1758921 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1758921 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/neu.10160/pdf http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/neu.10160/pdf http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/opinion/45_Hatemi_BehaviorGenetics.pdf http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/opinion/45_Hatemi_... http://unamusementpark.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/bouchard-genetic-influence.pdf http://unamusementpark.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/boucha... http://www.matthewckeller.com/16.Hatemi.et.al.2010.Nuc.fam.ajps.pdf http://www.matthewckeller.com/16.Hatemi.et.al.2010.Nuc.fam.a... https://infotomb.com/evkop.pdf https://infotomb.com/evkop.pdf https://infotomb.com/cwnp1.pdf https://infotomb.com/cwnp1.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2923822/#!po=50.0000 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2923822/#!po=50....

yummyfajitas 11y ago

It's been shown in at least one experiment that superficial appearances are correlated with underlying qualities. Specifically, simply by looking at two people one can choose the one better at math 55% of the time! https://mega.co.nz/#!6UxzVLIA!BVUOujU76VnhZM45QE4N2oFz0yLRTfgO4Mj6GRgT9wU https://mega.co.nz/#!6UxzVLIA!BVUOujU76VnhZM45QE4N2oFz0yLRTf... The title and abstract of the study (discussing gender stereotypes) more or less ignores the truly interesting bits of this study. Gender stereotypes reduce profits by 0.1% but discrimination by appearance increases profits by 11.4%! Obviously actual math tests are better than appearance.

firethief 11y ago
I'd rather not install an app to read that, but presumably they are measuring who is better educated in math. I would expect the correlation to be mostly explained by different ethnic groups in the location the study was conducted having different access to education, cultural values, and expectations placed on them. It would go a long way toward distinguishing between those two possibilities if a computer judged the faces - find the eigenface(s) of different mathematical ability levels and see if there's a lot of correlation between those and ethnicity, or if features alone are the predictor. Even if it is features alone though, I would expect a major involvement of education and self-fulfilling expectations: take a starting state where there is no correlation between facial features and math aptitude. Everyone would have their own beliefs about what faces are good at math (humans always see patterns). Some of those beliefs would happen to be similar, so people with certain features would be steered more toward math. As time passes, the bias becomes more legitimate and more self-perpetuating. The end result is a socially-imposed link between particular visible traits and ability in math.
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  You don't need to install an app, if you do the right pattern of clicks you can download it. But here is an ungated preprint (wasn't available when I first downloaded the paper): http://www.ereuben.net/research/StereotypesWomensCareer.pdf http://www.ereuben.net/research/StereotypesWomensCareer.pdf They could indeed be observing that "asians are good at math" stereotypes are a useful predictor, the study doesn't really give enough info to determine that one way or the other.