3 ms·

At the root of the whole problem is that we collectively have an idea in our heads about what a "computer science nerd" looks like, and then we make judgements

At the root of the whole problem is that we collectively have an idea in our heads about what a "computer science nerd" looks like, and then we make judgements about people based on whether or not they fit that image. In cases like this the overwhelming factors are being black and being a woman -- if she were a white man who cared about her appearance she wouldn't face the same difficulties.

mc32 11y ago
It's true people have perceptions but they exist in all places all the time. A guy walking into a gender studies class could get treated differently too. I had to go into such office once and it was a bit strange. Walking into a restaurant in a barrio-like location gets me weird looks. It'd be better if things were not this way but these actions are not extraordinary nor typically directed personally.
- mtinkerhess 11y ago
  I don't think anyone is saying that we can completely eliminate the gut reactions we collectively have -- but it's precisely because they are so pervasive that it's important to talk about them and be aware of their existence and implications so that we can take actions to reduce and mitigate them.
  - mc32 11y ago
    Sure, that's commendable. But let's state these in less divisive terms. We can all enumerate this experiences. We've all had them, in varying degrees. Do you think if a non Latin walked into a Latin recording studio that someone would not look at it as not ordinary, or an accordion player walking into a rock studio? The way to eliminate these tendencies is to make them not exceptional. There was time when Asians were not a majority in science majors... But now they are expected there. In a perfect world we would not make wrong assumptions, though we'd like the right assumptions. A fat person might not be presumed to prefer an elevator or a diet soda over a full soda. Or presume American Republicans to be bigots or democrats spendthrifts.
    - mtinkerhess 11y ago
      You're not wrong, and I think we're coming at this from a very similar place. I hope I'm not coming off as divisive. There is a fundamental difference between the experience of being prejudged against when you're a member of a powerful group in society vs. a member of an oppressed group. The difference is difficult for a member of a dominant group to fully understand, partly because they don't have to be aware of their position in a dominant group every single day, whereas members of oppressed groups are constantly reminded of their position. This isn't to say that men don't have their own issues that they need support with -- issues like (I think) higher rates of unemployment, depression, suicide, drug abuse, imprisonment, lower graduation rates, problems with custody and child support payments, etc. Some people do go too far in saying that if you're a member of a dominant group then you cannot claim to suffer from discrimination in any way, and that's not what I'm trying to say. I totally agree that the long-term goal should be to make e.g. women in CS programs unexceptional -- and to get there we need to recognize the ways that we make it harder for those women who are in CS programs today to stick it out.
deleted 11y ago
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mc32 11y ago

It's true people have perceptions but they exist in all places all the time. A guy walking into a gender studies class could get treated differently too. I had to go into such office once and it was a bit strange. Walking into a restaurant in a barrio-like location gets me weird looks. It'd be better if things were not this way but these actions are not extraordinary nor typically directed personally.

mtinkerhess 11y ago
I don't think anyone is saying that we can completely eliminate the gut reactions we collectively have -- but it's precisely because they are so pervasive that it's important to talk about them and be aware of their existence and implications so that we can take actions to reduce and mitigate them.
- mc32 11y ago
  Sure, that's commendable. But let's state these in less divisive terms. We can all enumerate this experiences. We've all had them, in varying degrees. Do you think if a non Latin walked into a Latin recording studio that someone would not look at it as not ordinary, or an accordion player walking into a rock studio? The way to eliminate these tendencies is to make them not exceptional. There was time when Asians were not a majority in science majors... But now they are expected there. In a perfect world we would not make wrong assumptions, though we'd like the right assumptions. A fat person might not be presumed to prefer an elevator or a diet soda over a full soda. Or presume American Republicans to be bigots or democrats spendthrifts.
  - mtinkerhess 11y ago
    You're not wrong, and I think we're coming at this from a very similar place. I hope I'm not coming off as divisive. There is a fundamental difference between the experience of being prejudged against when you're a member of a powerful group in society vs. a member of an oppressed group. The difference is difficult for a member of a dominant group to fully understand, partly because they don't have to be aware of their position in a dominant group every single day, whereas members of oppressed groups are constantly reminded of their position. This isn't to say that men don't have their own issues that they need support with -- issues like (I think) higher rates of unemployment, depression, suicide, drug abuse, imprisonment, lower graduation rates, problems with custody and child support payments, etc. Some people do go too far in saying that if you're a member of a dominant group then you cannot claim to suffer from discrimination in any way, and that's not what I'm trying to say. I totally agree that the long-term goal should be to make e.g. women in CS programs unexceptional -- and to get there we need to recognize the ways that we make it harder for those women who are in CS programs today to stick it out.

deleted 11y ago

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