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Show HN: Buttermilk Supply – knives from Japanese masters

49 points by buttermilk 11y ago

buttermilk 11y ago
I know e-commerce might not get a ton of love here, but I'd really appreciate any feedback you might have for me. I've been a fine-dining chef for years and recently left my restaurant to build a business around my love of Japanese knives. I've been working on the site slowly over four months. I think it's good, but I'd happily accept anything you can say about it. Thank you!
- AlexDanger 11y ago
  Hi. I like the site, well done. It was clear within 30 seconds of visiting your site that you are passionate about knives and stand behind what you sell. That impression is very clear and a very positive sales pitch. I trust you. I am not in the market for a knife at the moment but I'd be happy ordering from your site. One question: is there any issue shipping knives internationally? I live in Australia and know we have some fairly strict import laws around explosives and sharp things. If customs decide your item is prohibited it can be a real headache getting it released.
  - titanomachy 11y ago
    There's something ironic about an Australian being unable to obtain a knife.
    - NamTaf 11y ago
      It's because we're expected to rend the flesh with our bare hands from a young age; knife ownership is therefore not as common as in other first-world nations.
    - dylanjermiah 11y ago
      It's only ironic if your knowledge of Australia is 'Crocodile Dundee'.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 11y ago
    If you want a nice Japanese knife in Australia, chefsarmoury.com is based in AU.
- ehnto 11y ago
  On my mobile device, upon trying to open the menu I recieved a page overlay with the text 'Content Not Found'. Just a heads up! I found the site quite appealing, and the niche market combined with your first hand knowledge and passion for the subject matter is a recipie for success. The wording on the site definitely makes them feel hand picked. Normally one would expect a professional, cold and distanced tone from a site like this, in order to create a sense of refinement for the product. But I think the tone you have created works really well, I particularly liked 'Laser. This is a laser.' although I think a more serious and thorough description after the humour will help appease more types of customers at once! Best of luck!
  - DanBC 11y ago
    I also had the burger-menu problem. Here's a screenshot. http://imgur.com/0UxIFGB http://imgur.com/0UxIFGB
- vehementi 11y ago
  Just some shitty comments: I clicked two knife categories and both said "This has no western equivalent!" True or false I am getting some twinges of "wowee, so foreign, must be amazing, ancient secrets that somehow never crossed the ocean are here at last." Similarly I am unconvinced that we need specific knife forging masters whose fathers were knife forging masters to forge these knives. Do they have magical techniques that nobody else knows? Do you have to do it for 100 years to be able to make a good knife, or is the bar in fact lower? Your "why carbon steel?" page seems to indicate that carbon steel knives are better than stainless steel in all ways. Is that really true? Another poster here seemed to summarize that the carbon steel ones need more frequent sharpening (i.e. stay sharp less long, contrary to what you said).
  - jarcane 11y ago
    The shape and design of Japanese knives is indeed quite different in use than the typical western chef's knife. It takes a little adjustment, but personally I do prefer a good santoku blade when I can get one, unless I'm doing something that needs the extra length. The thing about Japanese knife making is that they're just about the only ones left doing it that way, and there are advantages to hand-forged steel. You can't get the same results from machine stamping, and yeah, centuries of experience is not to be sneezed at in any profession. You'd be surprised how much of the working knowledge of a whole range of fields dates back to the middle ages. One of the holy grails of Western smithing books came out in the time of woodcuts. Using high carbon steel increases the tensile strength and hardness of the blade. It's true that crafted Japanese knives do require more regular care and maintenance, but the durability in the long term if properly treated is dramatically greater than stamped stainless knives. There are sushi chefs in Japan using 100+ year old knives. I was a cook professionally for many years, and I've tried a whole range of knives from the lowest to the highest end, and no knife I have ever used has been as pleasant to work with as a good Japanese forged knife. I'd still buy one in a heartbeat if I could both spare the cash and justify it for simple home use.
    - lafar6502 11y ago
      I find it hard to believe that there are enough knife forging masters in Japan to be able to supply all hand made blades to the whole world. In last few years the demand has gone up many times (fashion, marketing, Internet) and the supply of master craftsmen is limited,even in Japan - i'd expect everybody and their grandma is making knives now from pre-machined components.
- Intermernet 11y ago
  If you're selling premium stuff, you should provide premium online service. Videos for every product. Consider getting a panel of well known chefs to provide consistent reviews. Remember, as a quality provider, you sell only one or two products for each use case. Allow the buyer to easily understand the use case for the product. (e.g. Professional chef, detailed work knife)
- petewailes 11y ago
  Credentials: chef grandparents, and former chef brother (Ex Le Gavroche and Scotts), and I've been cooking since I was old enough to hold a pan. Tidy site, and the kind of thing I'd use. However, I suspect it's only going to appeal to people more like us, rather than anyone who doesn't know why a konosuke hd is a cool thing. I'd suggest spending some time on a page for "Why you want to buy these kinds of knives". Think of it as the knives equiv. to http://bellroy.com/slim-your-wallet http://bellroy.com/slim-your-wallet
  - hellbanner 11y ago
    That is one of the best product sites I've ever seen, thank you! The micro-pen is a nice touch hah.
  - buttermilk 11y ago
    It's in your blood! I'm impressed you managed to stay out of the industry. I appreciate that feedback and will definitely work on a page for this purpose. Great idea. It's one of those things where it's so clear to me that it's hard to lay it out as barebones to people that don't yet get it.
    - petewailes 11y ago
      Dear lord the hours! I enjoy having a life too much to go in to it! :p That said, I cook basically every night, and I've got some toys I suspect you'd enjoy. Good luck with it!
      - buttermilk 11y ago
        Yeah. The hours. It's life-absorbing. Good for you! Thanks for the luck.
    - Abraln 11y ago
      Yeah, that's one of the difficulties. That's probably why the Guinsu knives people ended up having those demonstrations where they cut bricks, metal, etc., to capture the customer's attention quickly. I would not personally go that far though! Edit: typos
- sgift 11y ago
  http://www.buttermilksupply.com/what-kind-of-knife-should-i-get/ http://www.buttermilksupply.com/what-kind-of-knife-should-i-... The whole start of this post has a very "snake oil salesman" feeling to it (at least to me). You start with two very respected knive producers, tell flat out "these are shit, because I say so!" and then don't provide any supporting evidence. If your product is superior then tell me why, don't assume I will just trust you here.
  - buttermilk 11y ago
    Thanks for pointing this out. I realize now that this was a bit flagrant. I'll try moving this portion to a separate post and elaborating more gently on reasons why it's worth avoiding these brands. Do you think that would be an improvement?
    - Abraln 11y ago
      I'm not the person you're asking, but I certainly think so. The strategy of: 1 identify a problem with existing products (try to make the audience go "oh yeah, I hate that"). 2 explaining how your product solves this problem. This usually works very well as seen on most infomercials (ex. Are you tired of ______? Well now there's _______!) I think this will be especially true since most people own knives already, so they will only buy yours if they think it is an upgrade significant enough to be worth the cost. As a result, maximizing the perceived difference between your knives and the ones they already have is key. Sorry for any typos I missed, I dictated this on mobile.
      - buttermilk 11y ago
        Great point. Thanks for this! Part of the problem in elaborating on these differences is needing avoid the insider lexicon and references to insider knowledge. When I start to explain it, it becomes excessive. When I don't explain it, I risk alienating those that, for good reason, don't already know. Either way, I'll definitely work on this.
- onli 11y ago
  I think one can really see that a lot of work has gone into it. I mean that as a good thing, it feels like a good site. The one thing that put me off from a web design perspective is the carousel at the top. I can see how you think both images are important, but it should be better to focus on one. I like the shigehiro one. On the "From the hand of the masters", it gives a great image of what you are selling, but auto-play videos are cumbersome for me and the black textbox on the right seems broken.
- roel_v 11y ago
  I think I would be in your target market - home cook, not a very good one, like equipment, enough disposable income that I could afford a $300 knife, but I have to be convinced on it. I want you to succeed (although I don't know you, but I've already spend the 20 mins on looking at your site and typing this so I'm emotionally invested), so read the following with that in mind: - Agreed with other poster - you're selling premium products, you need to provide a premium experience. It's getting there but there are many online shops that look and feel just like yours. Better photography, better navigation, ... - When I click 'knives', I get a whole bunch of knives that to me are just knives. Some look prettier than others, that's it. This was actually what held me back from buying one - even the descriptions don't say which knife is better for what. It just says a bunch of Japanese mumbo jumbo that I don't care about, plus a whole lot of "it's better, trust me". You need to guide people to one knife that is perfect for them, or at least, to a selection of 3 with a big title 'pick the one you think looks best'. E.g. are some knives better for cutting some foods? Does one type need more maintenance? Are some better for bigger/smaller hands? What size do I need? Don't make me choose, because you've lost me at that point. Those who already know what they want will find what they're after anyway. For example, there is one knife whose description says "For newbies, or pros, the Tanaka Nakiri is a great addition.". No shit sherlock, so it's 'great' for everybody? To me this just screams 'all our knives are the same, or at least we don't know the difference, we just offer a bunch of different ones because we want to sell you the most expensive one'. - The whole 'Japanese sword master' mysticism isn't doing it for me. Why would 'hand made' be better than precision-machined? That doesn't make sense, and I know that it's a common marketing trope, but consumers are realizing - you need to explain what value hard-made adds, because 'hand-made' is mostly 'expensive' to me. - Maybe international is not your target market, but I couldn't find anything about shipping to the EU. Good luck on your shop. As an aside, I have some silicone-with-magnet-inlay knife sheets that I use for my nicer knives, to keep them nice in the drawer. Maybe an idea for you to add as an upsell.
  - buttermilk 11y ago
    Wow. Thanks for all of this. I appreciate your emotional investment. I, too, want me to suceed. - a premium experience is what I'm hoping to provide. It's what I offer through the experience of buying from us. Do you have any suggestions for what I could work on to provide a more premium browsing experience? Are you saying that my photos and navigation should be better? If so, what would you like to see different about them? - You're totally right. The knives page is just a bunch of knives. I know them, and I wasn't able to unknow them for the sake of development. I offer explanations of the knife type on the browsing page for each knife type, but you're totally right that the general knife browsing page should be different. Should I only list categories and a brief overview of which category is for what use? Also, I love the idea of building a "Choose your own adventure"-style navigation, separately, to help focus your search. - I'll add an explanation of why hand-made is better. I think I started to go into it in one of the artcles, but I should make it more clear and available. Where would you like to see that kind of information? - International shipping was a total oversight. Thank you! I'll clarify that today. I'm curious about your silicone and magnet sheets, do you have a link to something similar online? I've never heard of this. I am working on knife rolls, magnetic wood knife racks, and individual knife covers as well.
- ojiikun 11y ago
  A few lightweight thoughts: * The stock images on the front page are a bit odd. In particular, the vintage-ish B&W images of a person with a knife in a wicker chair and what looks like a group of people standing a an old store. These have a very old-Western feel to them that is totally at odds with the fact that you are selling Japanese knives. Lots of cognitive dissonance as a result. * One of the first images that appears at the top of the front page is a blade with a Damascus finish. FWIW, I associate this with overpriced, form-before-function knives, not knives of good performance and good value for money. * Love, love, love the clear presentation of lengh, spine thickness, etc. A table-style set of listings with these front and centre would be priceless for me. * It is unclear (from both the browse page and the detail page) which knives are single-bevel and wich are double-bevel. This is first-round decision-making info; very few people know (or can remember) that the difference between a nakiri and an usuba is just single vs double bevel. Maybe a icon or abbreviation on each listing? * Saying "100% SATISFACTION. GUARANTEED." is promising, but some details would be nice. Who pays return shipping? Do I get a refund, a credit, and/or replacement? With handcrafted blades, a nontrivial number get chipped or tipped within the first few uses, at no fault of the user. I am hesitant to buy until I know how this would be handled. * Listings for single-bevel knives should have photos of both the front side and the urasaki-side, since, well, they are different. * The listing for the heavy cutting board doesn't have dimensions. * Took a bit of mental processing to realise 'petti' was being spelled 'petty'.
  - buttermilk 11y ago
    Stock images: I wondered how this was working for people. You're the first to bring it up, but I didn't feel super comfortable with them either. Thanks for mentioning it. They were a shot in the dark, but I'll work on replacements now. Damascus: I think that your assumption about this is largely fair. There has been a plague of bad mass-produced damascus knives, or damascus-printed knives, available everywhere recently. This is unfortunate because there are still many extremely high performing knives utilizing damascus steel. Damascus and suminagashi are techniques built on antiquated necessity but remain as a way for makers to flex their skill. It is extremely labor intensive and requires a significant skill set. My interest in the damascus of Shigehiro knives is the beautiful pattern that is specific to Ikeda-san. It shows incredible skill and through aesthetic can heighten the users interaction with the knife. I assure you that despite many damascus knives putting form and price over function, they will never be in my shop. Table: Thanks! You're saying they're good as is, right? Bevels: Great point. I haven't yet listed any single-bevels so it hadn't crossed my mind. They will primarily be categorically separate, but would a line inclusion on the tables suffice? Guarantee: You're right. I wasn't explicit here, partially to clip abuse. I realize that it might seem slightly self-protective, but I do want to instill confidence that I do guarantee full satisfaction from what we offer. I'm concerned about being too explicit because I don't want to offer a time cutoff nor can I say that if you decide you don't quite like a knife in five years that I'm liable for it. There are many potential scenarios, in most of which I'd pay the shipping, but how many do I list? If you've got suggestions for what would make you feel more comfortable, I'd love to hear them. Single-bevels: They totally will. Both sides are important Board: thanks! I'll add that now. Petty: I'm not sure what you mean by this? Thanks!
DrScump 11y ago
For one thing, your site scales downward quite cleanly to minibrowsers (I tried it with Opera on my GS5) - many major sites really screw that up.
- buttermilk 11y ago
  Thanks! I tried to make it largely compatible. I'm still working on making the mobile version load real cleanly. Thanks again.
durkie 11y ago
what do you have against ceramics? obviously you're not going to get one from an old japanese dude that's been making them for decades, but they seem like they'd be way harder and hold and edge for longer.
- xanfred 11y ago
  Actually you'd be surprised. Kyocera started selling ceramic knives in the 80s. They are still literally hand-sharpened by old Japanese dudes in specialist workshops. Great video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFnT5INymiY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFnT5INymiY
- buttermilk 11y ago
  There are a few problems with ceramic knives. The problems that I see personally are: -Not sharp enough and no way to sharpen them at home without diamond, or potentially aluminum oxide, stones -They're chippy and breaky. One of the reasons most makers produce them without a pointed tip. The high hardness of a material that is inherently not tough, reduces the toughness further. This material has the ability to take a razor edge, but it would be uselessly brittle. Under light use though, I can see them working really well for some users. -The geometry is terrible. The bad geometry of the blade sacrifices cutting performance, the bad geometry of the handle is just uncomfortable. Their near weightlessness is also a detriment for anything beyond small tasks. -They're typically only small and, again, lack pointed tips -I find them to be particularly unattractive Again, if they work for you, great! I got nothing against that and nobody should think less of you. They just don't work for me.
zatkin 11y ago
Friday, November 13th is upon us, folks.
somberi 11y ago
I am no knife expert but these knives look lovely. If anyone is interested in Knifes, here is a fascinating article from New Yorker (2008): http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/11/24/sharper http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/11/24/sharper I got one of the Japanese knives gifted to me. I think it is in the same price range as your lineup. I use a Kyocera Ceramic knife for about 10 years and they have a free sharpening service (which I used once). It has been chopping like a champ. What I found stunning was the metal knife was lighter (in a very good way) than the ceramic knife. I am a vegetarian and hence ceramic works better (no metallic tang), but I understand you buy lovely knives as the ones you carry for its epicurean value as much as its utilitarian value. Of all the formats of knives I have, I use the Santoku the most. It hits the sweet spot between a paring knife and Chef's knife. All the best.
veidr 11y ago
> "WE DON'T SELL BULLSHIT. EVER." I am sure some people will object to that being on the front page, but it gave me a great feeling as a potential customer. And, being that such blunt language is pretty rare on a customer-facing landing page, it immediately created some memorability that wouldn't have been there otherwise. (Somewhat the same as if I had said out loud, "Buttermilk Supply. Buttermilk Supply.") I advise that you keep it, even though many will inevitably advise you that it seems unprofessional. As a dilettante home cook with a somewhat deficient ratio of financial responsibility to disposable income, I find myself buying fairly high-end kitchen knives online often. I just like using them, even though my 'cooking' really mostly amounts to slicing tomatoes and cucumbers to eat with (Ajinomoto MSG-coated) salt. That may not be what you are going for in terms of your customer base, but if it is, I would additionally recommend solving the sharpening problem, and the cleaning problem, really well. I never graduated beyond stuff like the Shun knives commonly available on Amazon, and those things were a big reason why. (Shun offers easy mail-in sharpening.) Sell the knives with a cardboard return shipping box for sharpening, and then send them back with a shipping box that can be re-used the next time. And if you want to get fancy, include a simple knife cleaning tool. I historically would never consider buying any kitchen item that can't go in the dishwasher -- except a knife, because I like the idea of a blade so sharp that detergents will damage the molecular structure of the super-fine edge. Still, I confess to saying "fuck it" on many occasions and putting my $150 Shun santoku or paring knives in the dishwasher. That is because I sometimes find myself looking at a gross dishpan full of dirty dishes in brackish water, and the sponge is somewhere in the bottom... I just don't always feel like sticking my hand in there. I finally curbed that habit by crafting my own knife cleaning tool from a nylon-brush dishwashing brush and a folded-over sponge, that I keep separate from the normal dish washing gear. It is janky, but you could actually make something along those lines pretty cool and very cheap, and then include/sell that. And the cleaning tool itself would be something you could throw in the dishwasher whenever needed. Good luck! I will remember your site on my next birthday.
- mikekchar 11y ago
  As far as I know there is only one solution to the knife sharpening problem: you have to sharpen it yourself. Carbon steel knives sharpen really easily. Buy a sharpening stone. While it takes practice to do it well, it is not exactly rocket science. I'm sure there are more than a few good videos on the internet. Many people also sharpen with sand paper. Carbon steel is completely different than stainless steel which is very difficult to sharpen well. That is the entire point of buying a good carbon steel knife. If you send your knife in to the shop to be sharpened, it will basically be dull (or in transit) all of the time. Also, get in the habit of cleaning your knife and putting it away immediately. I put my knife away at least 20 times when I'm cooking. Never leave it wet -- ever. Keep a towel available. Again, this is the price of a good knife.
yitchelle 11y ago
For a knife noobie like me, I can't really see the difference between the your knives and those you mentioned in here[0]. Would be nice if you could add a couple of the major differences to your post. Having said that, your knives look amazing from an functional art perspective. Well done on sourcing these knives. [0] - http://www.buttermilksupply.com/what-kind-of-knife-should-i-get/ http://www.buttermilksupply.com/what-kind-of-knife-should-i-...
- mikekchar 11y ago
  I have only had time to browse the website very quickly (and I have to say that my eyebrowse are raised when a vender of quality carbon steel knives offers a sharpening service since you should sharpen the knife every day or so). Here is a quick summary. Carbon steel is very soft. It is really easy to sharpen. It dulls quickly. It also can bend (which is very important in some fish knives, but not so desirable for some other knives). Very high quality knives are made by folding the metal and there is an outer layer of a harder steel (that's why you get that pretty pattern). Basically such a knife is easy to get wickedly sharp, but you need to sharpen it a lot. A stainless steel knife is harder steel (and doesn't discolor). It is comparatively difficult to get very, very sharp, but it will hold its edge for quite a while (a few weeks anyway). You use a "sharpening steel" to rebend the edge of the knife to keep the sharp side facing down. If you want a super sharp knife to do very precise work, nothing beats carbon steel. Japanese knives in particular are (IMHO) the best because there is a huge variety of knives with very particular properties. Stainless steel knives a beginner friendly, but apart from that there is virtually no advantages. Hence they "suck". Top of the line carbon steel knives are often much cheaper than "top of the line" stainless knives. Personally, I would never spend huge amounts of money on a stainless knive because you are already pretty limited. However, I think that they are still useful for many people since carbon steel requires quite a lot of time and skill to look after properly. And since I said "hard" and "soft" with respect to steel, I am aware that I am almost certainly wrong in my usage of the words, so I invite someone with metalurgy knowledge to correct me :-)
fookyong 11y ago
Very timely. I just moved house and am looking to buy some new knives (avid amateur chef!). I am no knife expert, but I thought that at this price level, steel hardness (HRC) is a property that a prospective buyer looks at? I don't see this listed anywhere for these knives. Edit: I noticed that it's in the body text of some knives. You might want to add that info to the data table under each knife - that's where I looked first :)
ddellacosta 11y ago
(In the Knives 101 section, first place I went for and first place I expect other folks may go to:) Wow, this is really offputting: They feed you bullshit in culinary school, bullshit on tv. Here are some knives to not buy: ...<snip>... There are many reasons to avoid these knives. I will not go into all of them here as I believe it would only be fair to address them individually, which seems really boring. At least some portion of this advice is misguided--I have a Global bread knife that has done me no wrong, is comfortable and has stayed sharp a long time, and I've bought plenty of good knives at "not a knife store" (ironically, a few in Japan including a nice Misono de-boning knife). But the bigger issue I have with it is that it is dismissive and reads like a hipster sneering at us common folks..."Oh, you have a Shun...? Well, I use a Japanese Gyuto...you probably haven't heard of it." At least show me the respect of not insulting my intelligence and justify why you think we should avoid the things you list. Otherwise you should just omit this section. Because I can tell you, as someone who likes to cook as an amateur and would like to learn more about Japanese knives, I am exactly in your target market (assuming you aren't actually a douchebag hipster who doesn't want to sell to anyone who has transgressed by violating your verboten list before in their lives), and I can tell you that you would do a lot better to change your tone here and simply start with the positives, explaining why I should care about Japanese knives at all and why I should buy them from you. Frankly, no one likes to be insulted implicitly or otherwise as their first exposure to a subject, and it is especially damaging if you are trying to sell something. (More specifically, I would start with the "Styles and Shapes" section, as that has the most actionable advice--tells me right away what a suggested "starter set" would be, and then goes into the functions of the different types in perfect detail--not too much, not too little. I care less about the details of the materials used, although I still think that is useful information. And if you are insistent on keeping a "what not to buy section," you'd do far better by leading with themes and then giving examples, something like "Mass-produced, stamped knives are bad for reason X...some examples of these are A, B and C, although the D line from B is not too bad..." Another tip--I clicked on the "learn more" link on the top page hero expecting to get information about knives, not to be dropped into the page of knives with no information--I would suggest linking that to the "Knives 101," and further more I think you would do well to link to some good product examples directly from your "Knives 101" page, so I can immediately read through your suggestions and pick some good knives to go with. You may even want to offer some "starter sets," like a Gyuto with a Funayuki as a package together...but I know you think sets are bullshit, so... ;-) EDIT: And in general I would say to highlight the "Knives 101" page--it strikes me from reading some of the other responses in this thread that dropping people into the knife selection with little guidance to go on is causing confusion. You could probably kill it if you help guide us ignorant foreigners through buying a Japanese knife--seriously, I really think this could really take off with the right approach.
steve19 11y ago
Only cutlery/kitchen knives is limiting your market. The custom tactical and custom outdoor knife market is huge and the customers can never get enough. The best "pocket knife" I own sells for $500, and this is considered mid-range. You are missing out on this action.
- onion2k 11y ago
  The market for kitchen knives is quite a lot bigger than the market for pocket knives.
- buttermilk 11y ago
  Well, both of you are right. The kitchen knife market in larger by way of necessity. However, I suspect that the market for outdoor knives >$500 is larger than that of kitchen knives. I do have kitchen knives showing up soon above $800 and am talking to makers that produce knives around $1500. Still, I'm interested in outdoor and pocket knives. I plan on integrating them within a year. For now though, I'm trying to find a great EDC knife <$100. If you've got any suggestions on any of these fronts, I'd be happy to hear them!
NamTaf 11y ago
It's worth you doing a pass across your product descriptions. Randomly clicking on one, I found this statement [1]: "You can read more about Shigehiro knives under the tab to the left." Except that there's no tab to the left; the tab you refer to is actually across the top of the page. Also, it took me 3 or so attempts to find which tab you meant specifically. People are paying hundreds of dollars for a knife. They expect the experience to be flawless, not just the product shipped to them. [1]: http://www.buttermilksupply.com/shop/knives/shigehiro-kasumi-santoku-180mm/ http://www.buttermilksupply.com/shop/knives/shigehiro-kasumi...
rtpg 11y ago
So much of this copy seems to be "other knives suck" rather than "our knives are cool". Why would I ever want to go through the purchase process if I'm on the fence and see this? Also, just personal but I don't think "Buttermilk Supply" is a super name for a knife vendor, but naming is tricky. The wording is a major turnoff for me
- joshuapants 11y ago
  > Why would I ever want to go through the purchase process if I'm on the fence and see this? You must not be the target market. They want to sell to people who like knives that don't suck.
- GBond 11y ago
  I agree. Target should be foodie/ home chef types who are willing to invest in the best. "Our knives are cool" is a better message for them.
  - buttermilk 11y ago
    That, along with pros, certainly is my target. That's the message that I hope to make clear. Do you have any specific copy that stands out as not saying this?
- buttermilk 11y ago
  Thanks for the feedback. I know I'm definitely guilty of this on the "Which knife should I buy?" page, and I'll be updating it today. Besides that, could you point out other areas that read like this to you? I'm certainly not interested in shaming or sounding aggressively negative. In response to the name, I'll be selling a wider selection than just knives. The offering looks limited now but it'll soon be expanded to everything necessary to working as a chef, or tools and supplies that would be worth having at home. The emphasis, though, will always be on knives. I know the name doesn't inform anyone that we're selling knives, but I personally like the name and wanted to take the approach of how we name restaurants. Something to suggest the experience.
bensummers 11y ago
Here's an entertaining talk by someone who created a similar site, although not out of a love of knives. http://www.primeconf.com/talks/pete-duncanson http://www.primeconf.com/talks/pete-duncanson
venomsnake 11y ago
Not a single Sakai made laser. Shame on you. Anyway it is good to see new players coming. Although your site a slightly hipsterish feel to it. Good luck ...
- buttermilk 11y ago
  Ha! I appreciate fingerpointing with some knowledge behind it. You're right, I don't currently have any Sakai lasers. Though some of my knives are made in Sakai. The two reasons I'm not stockpiling lasers are: -they're typically manufactured and not hand-forged (most of the better ones are hand-ground, however) and though I have no significant opposition to this, it's not where I wanted to start. I have limited resources and I'd prefer to support to individual craftsmen for now. -I've used a good handful, and I've loved very few. People lose their shit over the Sakai Yusuke, but I can't get into the samples I have. That said, I've owned and loved some Tanaka R2 knives. Crazy thin and also high performing. I'm working on stocking some soon. The hipsterish feel was not an accident. I wanted clean and hip with both modern and traditional elements. The other side of this spectrum has been done already!
gesman 11y ago
I love the quality of the site - top notch implementation of e-commerce portal. Could you forward me the coordinates of the person who built the site? gesman at mensk.com
- buttermilk 11y ago
  Hi Gesman. Thanks for the kind words! I was the one that built the site. What can I do for you?
  - gesman 11y ago
    My wife wants to revamp poodleit.com - to make it look luxurious brand (everything is hand-made top quality items). She likes wordpress but does not use WooCommerce - she uses ecwid.com and wants to keep using it. Any ideas? gesman at mensk.com PS: i love everything about your site.
- buttermilk 11y ago
  If you'd like to get in touch, send me a note through the site, or to the email listed on the site.
UserRights 11y ago
WTF are random ads about webshops on HN page one?
- buttermilk 11y ago
  Not an ad! I was looking for any input, which so many people have been kind enough to offer me. Though I understand your irritation. My apologies.
dzlobin 11y ago
Worth pointing out the current place that almost every cook and chef in NYC make their source for knives: Korin (http://www.korin.com http://www.korin.com)
- buttermilk 11y ago
  Korin has definitely got a huge marketshare. I appreciate what they've done for the industry and the exposure they've given to crafted knives. Their website used to drive me crazy though and it was rare for me to find an exciting double-bevel knife. Love to them though.
buttermilk 11y ago
Wow. Thank you so much for all of the feedback and response. I appreciate this so much. I'll be going through each comment today with a response.
threeseven 11y ago
On my iPhone 6 (8.4) a short video of what seems to be a metalworker pops up and loops when I open your link from the HN iOS app. Just thought you may want to know.
thoughtpalette 11y ago
I live right off Logan Square. I always wondered what that Butterfat store was! Is this where you're based out of? Love the site. What are you using for the payment gateway? Stripe?

49 points by buttermilk 11y ago

I know e-commerce might not get a ton of love here, but I'd really appreciate any feedback you might have for me. I've been a fine-dining chef for years and recently left my restaurant to build a business around my love of Japanese knives. I've been working on the site slowly over four months. I think it's good, but I'd happily accept anything you can say about it. Thank you!

AlexDanger 11y ago
Hi. I like the site, well done. It was clear within 30 seconds of visiting your site that you are passionate about knives and stand behind what you sell. That impression is very clear and a very positive sales pitch. I trust you. I am not in the market for a knife at the moment but I'd be happy ordering from your site. One question: is there any issue shipping knives internationally? I live in Australia and know we have some fairly strict import laws around explosives and sharp things. If customs decide your item is prohibited it can be a real headache getting it released.
- titanomachy 11y ago
  There's something ironic about an Australian being unable to obtain a knife.
  - NamTaf 11y ago
    It's because we're expected to rend the flesh with our bare hands from a young age; knife ownership is therefore not as common as in other first-world nations.
  - dylanjermiah 11y ago
    It's only ironic if your knowledge of Australia is 'Crocodile Dundee'.
- 2muchcoffeeman 11y ago
  If you want a nice Japanese knife in Australia, chefsarmoury.com is based in AU.
ehnto 11y ago
On my mobile device, upon trying to open the menu I recieved a page overlay with the text 'Content Not Found'. Just a heads up! I found the site quite appealing, and the niche market combined with your first hand knowledge and passion for the subject matter is a recipie for success. The wording on the site definitely makes them feel hand picked. Normally one would expect a professional, cold and distanced tone from a site like this, in order to create a sense of refinement for the product. But I think the tone you have created works really well, I particularly liked 'Laser. This is a laser.' although I think a more serious and thorough description after the humour will help appease more types of customers at once! Best of luck!
- DanBC 11y ago
  I also had the burger-menu problem. Here's a screenshot. http://imgur.com/0UxIFGB http://imgur.com/0UxIFGB
vehementi 11y ago
Just some shitty comments: I clicked two knife categories and both said "This has no western equivalent!" True or false I am getting some twinges of "wowee, so foreign, must be amazing, ancient secrets that somehow never crossed the ocean are here at last." Similarly I am unconvinced that we need specific knife forging masters whose fathers were knife forging masters to forge these knives. Do they have magical techniques that nobody else knows? Do you have to do it for 100 years to be able to make a good knife, or is the bar in fact lower? Your "why carbon steel?" page seems to indicate that carbon steel knives are better than stainless steel in all ways. Is that really true? Another poster here seemed to summarize that the carbon steel ones need more frequent sharpening (i.e. stay sharp less long, contrary to what you said).
- jarcane 11y ago
  The shape and design of Japanese knives is indeed quite different in use than the typical western chef's knife. It takes a little adjustment, but personally I do prefer a good santoku blade when I can get one, unless I'm doing something that needs the extra length. The thing about Japanese knife making is that they're just about the only ones left doing it that way, and there are advantages to hand-forged steel. You can't get the same results from machine stamping, and yeah, centuries of experience is not to be sneezed at in any profession. You'd be surprised how much of the working knowledge of a whole range of fields dates back to the middle ages. One of the holy grails of Western smithing books came out in the time of woodcuts. Using high carbon steel increases the tensile strength and hardness of the blade. It's true that crafted Japanese knives do require more regular care and maintenance, but the durability in the long term if properly treated is dramatically greater than stamped stainless knives. There are sushi chefs in Japan using 100+ year old knives. I was a cook professionally for many years, and I've tried a whole range of knives from the lowest to the highest end, and no knife I have ever used has been as pleasant to work with as a good Japanese forged knife. I'd still buy one in a heartbeat if I could both spare the cash and justify it for simple home use.
  - lafar6502 11y ago
    I find it hard to believe that there are enough knife forging masters in Japan to be able to supply all hand made blades to the whole world. In last few years the demand has gone up many times (fashion, marketing, Internet) and the supply of master craftsmen is limited,even in Japan - i'd expect everybody and their grandma is making knives now from pre-machined components.
Intermernet 11y ago
If you're selling premium stuff, you should provide premium online service. Videos for every product. Consider getting a panel of well known chefs to provide consistent reviews. Remember, as a quality provider, you sell only one or two products for each use case. Allow the buyer to easily understand the use case for the product. (e.g. Professional chef, detailed work knife)
petewailes 11y ago
Credentials: chef grandparents, and former chef brother (Ex Le Gavroche and Scotts), and I've been cooking since I was old enough to hold a pan. Tidy site, and the kind of thing I'd use. However, I suspect it's only going to appeal to people more like us, rather than anyone who doesn't know why a konosuke hd is a cool thing. I'd suggest spending some time on a page for "Why you want to buy these kinds of knives". Think of it as the knives equiv. to http://bellroy.com/slim-your-wallet http://bellroy.com/slim-your-wallet
- hellbanner 11y ago
  That is one of the best product sites I've ever seen, thank you! The micro-pen is a nice touch hah.
- buttermilk 11y ago
  It's in your blood! I'm impressed you managed to stay out of the industry. I appreciate that feedback and will definitely work on a page for this purpose. Great idea. It's one of those things where it's so clear to me that it's hard to lay it out as barebones to people that don't yet get it.
  - petewailes 11y ago
    Dear lord the hours! I enjoy having a life too much to go in to it! :p That said, I cook basically every night, and I've got some toys I suspect you'd enjoy. Good luck with it!
    - buttermilk 11y ago
      Yeah. The hours. It's life-absorbing. Good for you! Thanks for the luck.
  - Abraln 11y ago
    Yeah, that's one of the difficulties. That's probably why the Guinsu knives people ended up having those demonstrations where they cut bricks, metal, etc., to capture the customer's attention quickly. I would not personally go that far though! Edit: typos
sgift 11y ago
http://www.buttermilksupply.com/what-kind-of-knife-should-i-get/ http://www.buttermilksupply.com/what-kind-of-knife-should-i-... The whole start of this post has a very "snake oil salesman" feeling to it (at least to me). You start with two very respected knive producers, tell flat out "these are shit, because I say so!" and then don't provide any supporting evidence. If your product is superior then tell me why, don't assume I will just trust you here.
- buttermilk 11y ago
  Thanks for pointing this out. I realize now that this was a bit flagrant. I'll try moving this portion to a separate post and elaborating more gently on reasons why it's worth avoiding these brands. Do you think that would be an improvement?
  - Abraln 11y ago
    I'm not the person you're asking, but I certainly think so. The strategy of: 1 identify a problem with existing products (try to make the audience go "oh yeah, I hate that"). 2 explaining how your product solves this problem. This usually works very well as seen on most infomercials (ex. Are you tired of ______? Well now there's _______!) I think this will be especially true since most people own knives already, so they will only buy yours if they think it is an upgrade significant enough to be worth the cost. As a result, maximizing the perceived difference between your knives and the ones they already have is key. Sorry for any typos I missed, I dictated this on mobile.
    - buttermilk 11y ago
      Great point. Thanks for this! Part of the problem in elaborating on these differences is needing avoid the insider lexicon and references to insider knowledge. When I start to explain it, it becomes excessive. When I don't explain it, I risk alienating those that, for good reason, don't already know. Either way, I'll definitely work on this.
onli 11y ago
I think one can really see that a lot of work has gone into it. I mean that as a good thing, it feels like a good site. The one thing that put me off from a web design perspective is the carousel at the top. I can see how you think both images are important, but it should be better to focus on one. I like the shigehiro one. On the "From the hand of the masters", it gives a great image of what you are selling, but auto-play videos are cumbersome for me and the black textbox on the right seems broken.
roel_v 11y ago
I think I would be in your target market - home cook, not a very good one, like equipment, enough disposable income that I could afford a $300 knife, but I have to be convinced on it. I want you to succeed (although I don't know you, but I've already spend the 20 mins on looking at your site and typing this so I'm emotionally invested), so read the following with that in mind: - Agreed with other poster - you're selling premium products, you need to provide a premium experience. It's getting there but there are many online shops that look and feel just like yours. Better photography, better navigation, ... - When I click 'knives', I get a whole bunch of knives that to me are just knives. Some look prettier than others, that's it. This was actually what held me back from buying one - even the descriptions don't say which knife is better for what. It just says a bunch of Japanese mumbo jumbo that I don't care about, plus a whole lot of "it's better, trust me". You need to guide people to one knife that is perfect for them, or at least, to a selection of 3 with a big title 'pick the one you think looks best'. E.g. are some knives better for cutting some foods? Does one type need more maintenance? Are some better for bigger/smaller hands? What size do I need? Don't make me choose, because you've lost me at that point. Those who already know what they want will find what they're after anyway. For example, there is one knife whose description says "For newbies, or pros, the Tanaka Nakiri is a great addition.". No shit sherlock, so it's 'great' for everybody? To me this just screams 'all our knives are the same, or at least we don't know the difference, we just offer a bunch of different ones because we want to sell you the most expensive one'. - The whole 'Japanese sword master' mysticism isn't doing it for me. Why would 'hand made' be better than precision-machined? That doesn't make sense, and I know that it's a common marketing trope, but consumers are realizing - you need to explain what value hard-made adds, because 'hand-made' is mostly 'expensive' to me. - Maybe international is not your target market, but I couldn't find anything about shipping to the EU. Good luck on your shop. As an aside, I have some silicone-with-magnet-inlay knife sheets that I use for my nicer knives, to keep them nice in the drawer. Maybe an idea for you to add as an upsell.
- buttermilk 11y ago
  Wow. Thanks for all of this. I appreciate your emotional investment. I, too, want me to suceed. - a premium experience is what I'm hoping to provide. It's what I offer through the experience of buying from us. Do you have any suggestions for what I could work on to provide a more premium browsing experience? Are you saying that my photos and navigation should be better? If so, what would you like to see different about them? - You're totally right. The knives page is just a bunch of knives. I know them, and I wasn't able to unknow them for the sake of development. I offer explanations of the knife type on the browsing page for each knife type, but you're totally right that the general knife browsing page should be different. Should I only list categories and a brief overview of which category is for what use? Also, I love the idea of building a "Choose your own adventure"-style navigation, separately, to help focus your search. - I'll add an explanation of why hand-made is better. I think I started to go into it in one of the artcles, but I should make it more clear and available. Where would you like to see that kind of information? - International shipping was a total oversight. Thank you! I'll clarify that today. I'm curious about your silicone and magnet sheets, do you have a link to something similar online? I've never heard of this. I am working on knife rolls, magnetic wood knife racks, and individual knife covers as well.
ojiikun 11y ago
A few lightweight thoughts: * The stock images on the front page are a bit odd. In particular, the vintage-ish B&W images of a person with a knife in a wicker chair and what looks like a group of people standing a an old store. These have a very old-Western feel to them that is totally at odds with the fact that you are selling Japanese knives. Lots of cognitive dissonance as a result. * One of the first images that appears at the top of the front page is a blade with a Damascus finish. FWIW, I associate this with overpriced, form-before-function knives, not knives of good performance and good value for money. * Love, love, love the clear presentation of lengh, spine thickness, etc. A table-style set of listings with these front and centre would be priceless for me. * It is unclear (from both the browse page and the detail page) which knives are single-bevel and wich are double-bevel. This is first-round decision-making info; very few people know (or can remember) that the difference between a nakiri and an usuba is just single vs double bevel. Maybe a icon or abbreviation on each listing? * Saying "100% SATISFACTION. GUARANTEED." is promising, but some details would be nice. Who pays return shipping? Do I get a refund, a credit, and/or replacement? With handcrafted blades, a nontrivial number get chipped or tipped within the first few uses, at no fault of the user. I am hesitant to buy until I know how this would be handled. * Listings for single-bevel knives should have photos of both the front side and the urasaki-side, since, well, they are different. * The listing for the heavy cutting board doesn't have dimensions. * Took a bit of mental processing to realise 'petti' was being spelled 'petty'.
- buttermilk 11y ago
  Stock images: I wondered how this was working for people. You're the first to bring it up, but I didn't feel super comfortable with them either. Thanks for mentioning it. They were a shot in the dark, but I'll work on replacements now. Damascus: I think that your assumption about this is largely fair. There has been a plague of bad mass-produced damascus knives, or damascus-printed knives, available everywhere recently. This is unfortunate because there are still many extremely high performing knives utilizing damascus steel. Damascus and suminagashi are techniques built on antiquated necessity but remain as a way for makers to flex their skill. It is extremely labor intensive and requires a significant skill set. My interest in the damascus of Shigehiro knives is the beautiful pattern that is specific to Ikeda-san. It shows incredible skill and through aesthetic can heighten the users interaction with the knife. I assure you that despite many damascus knives putting form and price over function, they will never be in my shop. Table: Thanks! You're saying they're good as is, right? Bevels: Great point. I haven't yet listed any single-bevels so it hadn't crossed my mind. They will primarily be categorically separate, but would a line inclusion on the tables suffice? Guarantee: You're right. I wasn't explicit here, partially to clip abuse. I realize that it might seem slightly self-protective, but I do want to instill confidence that I do guarantee full satisfaction from what we offer. I'm concerned about being too explicit because I don't want to offer a time cutoff nor can I say that if you decide you don't quite like a knife in five years that I'm liable for it. There are many potential scenarios, in most of which I'd pay the shipping, but how many do I list? If you've got suggestions for what would make you feel more comfortable, I'd love to hear them. Single-bevels: They totally will. Both sides are important Board: thanks! I'll add that now. Petty: I'm not sure what you mean by this? Thanks!

DrScump 11y ago

For one thing, your site scales downward quite cleanly to minibrowsers (I tried it with Opera on my GS5) - many major sites really screw that up.

buttermilk 11y ago
Thanks! I tried to make it largely compatible. I'm still working on making the mobile version load real cleanly. Thanks again.

durkie 11y ago

what do you have against ceramics? obviously you're not going to get one from an old japanese dude that's been making them for decades, but they seem like they'd be way harder and hold and edge for longer.

xanfred 11y ago
Actually you'd be surprised. Kyocera started selling ceramic knives in the 80s. They are still literally hand-sharpened by old Japanese dudes in specialist workshops. Great video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFnT5INymiY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFnT5INymiY
buttermilk 11y ago
There are a few problems with ceramic knives. The problems that I see personally are: -Not sharp enough and no way to sharpen them at home without diamond, or potentially aluminum oxide, stones -They're chippy and breaky. One of the reasons most makers produce them without a pointed tip. The high hardness of a material that is inherently not tough, reduces the toughness further. This material has the ability to take a razor edge, but it would be uselessly brittle. Under light use though, I can see them working really well for some users. -The geometry is terrible. The bad geometry of the blade sacrifices cutting performance, the bad geometry of the handle is just uncomfortable. Their near weightlessness is also a detriment for anything beyond small tasks. -They're typically only small and, again, lack pointed tips -I find them to be particularly unattractive Again, if they work for you, great! I got nothing against that and nobody should think less of you. They just don't work for me.

zatkin 11y ago

Friday, November 13th is upon us, folks.

somberi 11y ago

I am no knife expert but these knives look lovely. If anyone is interested in Knifes, here is a fascinating article from New Yorker (2008): http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/11/24/sharper http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/11/24/sharper I got one of the Japanese knives gifted to me. I think it is in the same price range as your lineup. I use a Kyocera Ceramic knife for about 10 years and they have a free sharpening service (which I used once). It has been chopping like a champ. What I found stunning was the metal knife was lighter (in a very good way) than the ceramic knife. I am a vegetarian and hence ceramic works better (no metallic tang), but I understand you buy lovely knives as the ones you carry for its epicurean value as much as its utilitarian value. Of all the formats of knives I have, I use the Santoku the most. It hits the sweet spot between a paring knife and Chef's knife. All the best.

veidr 11y ago

> "WE DON'T SELL BULLSHIT. EVER." I am sure some people will object to that being on the front page, but it gave me a great feeling as a potential customer. And, being that such blunt language is pretty rare on a customer-facing landing page, it immediately created some memorability that wouldn't have been there otherwise. (Somewhat the same as if I had said out loud, "Buttermilk Supply. Buttermilk Supply.") I advise that you keep it, even though many will inevitably advise you that it seems unprofessional. As a dilettante home cook with a somewhat deficient ratio of financial responsibility to disposable income, I find myself buying fairly high-end kitchen knives online often. I just like using them, even though my 'cooking' really mostly amounts to slicing tomatoes and cucumbers to eat with (Ajinomoto MSG-coated) salt. That may not be what you are going for in terms of your customer base, but if it is, I would additionally recommend solving the sharpening problem, and the cleaning problem, really well. I never graduated beyond stuff like the Shun knives commonly available on Amazon, and those things were a big reason why. (Shun offers easy mail-in sharpening.) Sell the knives with a cardboard return shipping box for sharpening, and then send them back with a shipping box that can be re-used the next time. And if you want to get fancy, include a simple knife cleaning tool. I historically would never consider buying any kitchen item that can't go in the dishwasher -- except a knife, because I like the idea of a blade so sharp that detergents will damage the molecular structure of the super-fine edge. Still, I confess to saying "fuck it" on many occasions and putting my $150 Shun santoku or paring knives in the dishwasher. That is because I sometimes find myself looking at a gross dishpan full of dirty dishes in brackish water, and the sponge is somewhere in the bottom... I just don't always feel like sticking my hand in there. I finally curbed that habit by crafting my own knife cleaning tool from a nylon-brush dishwashing brush and a folded-over sponge, that I keep separate from the normal dish washing gear. It is janky, but you could actually make something along those lines pretty cool and very cheap, and then include/sell that. And the cleaning tool itself would be something you could throw in the dishwasher whenever needed. Good luck! I will remember your site on my next birthday.

mikekchar 11y ago
As far as I know there is only one solution to the knife sharpening problem: you have to sharpen it yourself. Carbon steel knives sharpen really easily. Buy a sharpening stone. While it takes practice to do it well, it is not exactly rocket science. I'm sure there are more than a few good videos on the internet. Many people also sharpen with sand paper. Carbon steel is completely different than stainless steel which is very difficult to sharpen well. That is the entire point of buying a good carbon steel knife. If you send your knife in to the shop to be sharpened, it will basically be dull (or in transit) all of the time. Also, get in the habit of cleaning your knife and putting it away immediately. I put my knife away at least 20 times when I'm cooking. Never leave it wet -- ever. Keep a towel available. Again, this is the price of a good knife.

yitchelle 11y ago

For a knife noobie like me, I can't really see the difference between the your knives and those you mentioned in here[0]. Would be nice if you could add a couple of the major differences to your post. Having said that, your knives look amazing from an functional art perspective. Well done on sourcing these knives. [0] - http://www.buttermilksupply.com/what-kind-of-knife-should-i-get/ http://www.buttermilksupply.com/what-kind-of-knife-should-i-...

mikekchar 11y ago
I have only had time to browse the website very quickly (and I have to say that my eyebrowse are raised when a vender of quality carbon steel knives offers a sharpening service since you should sharpen the knife every day or so). Here is a quick summary. Carbon steel is very soft. It is really easy to sharpen. It dulls quickly. It also can bend (which is very important in some fish knives, but not so desirable for some other knives). Very high quality knives are made by folding the metal and there is an outer layer of a harder steel (that's why you get that pretty pattern). Basically such a knife is easy to get wickedly sharp, but you need to sharpen it a lot. A stainless steel knife is harder steel (and doesn't discolor). It is comparatively difficult to get very, very sharp, but it will hold its edge for quite a while (a few weeks anyway). You use a "sharpening steel" to rebend the edge of the knife to keep the sharp side facing down. If you want a super sharp knife to do very precise work, nothing beats carbon steel. Japanese knives in particular are (IMHO) the best because there is a huge variety of knives with very particular properties. Stainless steel knives a beginner friendly, but apart from that there is virtually no advantages. Hence they "suck". Top of the line carbon steel knives are often much cheaper than "top of the line" stainless knives. Personally, I would never spend huge amounts of money on a stainless knive because you are already pretty limited. However, I think that they are still useful for many people since carbon steel requires quite a lot of time and skill to look after properly. And since I said "hard" and "soft" with respect to steel, I am aware that I am almost certainly wrong in my usage of the words, so I invite someone with metalurgy knowledge to correct me :-)

fookyong 11y ago

Very timely. I just moved house and am looking to buy some new knives (avid amateur chef!). I am no knife expert, but I thought that at this price level, steel hardness (HRC) is a property that a prospective buyer looks at? I don't see this listed anywhere for these knives. Edit: I noticed that it's in the body text of some knives. You might want to add that info to the data table under each knife - that's where I looked first :)

ddellacosta 11y ago

(In the Knives 101 section, first place I went for and first place I expect other folks may go to:) Wow, this is really offputting: They feed you bullshit in culinary school, bullshit on tv. Here are some knives to not buy: ...<snip>... There are many reasons to avoid these knives. I will not go into all of them here as I believe it would only be fair to address them individually, which seems really boring. At least some portion of this advice is misguided--I have a Global bread knife that has done me no wrong, is comfortable and has stayed sharp a long time, and I've bought plenty of good knives at "not a knife store" (ironically, a few in Japan including a nice Misono de-boning knife). But the bigger issue I have with it is that it is dismissive and reads like a hipster sneering at us common folks..."Oh, you have a Shun...? Well, I use a Japanese Gyuto...you probably haven't heard of it." At least show me the respect of not insulting my intelligence and justify why you think we should avoid the things you list. Otherwise you should just omit this section. Because I can tell you, as someone who likes to cook as an amateur and would like to learn more about Japanese knives, I am exactly in your target market (assuming you aren't actually a douchebag hipster who doesn't want to sell to anyone who has transgressed by violating your verboten list before in their lives), and I can tell you that you would do a lot better to change your tone here and simply start with the positives, explaining why I should care about Japanese knives at all and why I should buy them from you. Frankly, no one likes to be insulted implicitly or otherwise as their first exposure to a subject, and it is especially damaging if you are trying to sell something. (More specifically, I would start with the "Styles and Shapes" section, as that has the most actionable advice--tells me right away what a suggested "starter set" would be, and then goes into the functions of the different types in perfect detail--not too much, not too little. I care less about the details of the materials used, although I still think that is useful information. And if you are insistent on keeping a "what not to buy section," you'd do far better by leading with themes and then giving examples, something like "Mass-produced, stamped knives are bad for reason X...some examples of these are A, B and C, although the D line from B is not too bad..." Another tip--I clicked on the "learn more" link on the top page hero expecting to get information about knives, not to be dropped into the page of knives with no information--I would suggest linking that to the "Knives 101," and further more I think you would do well to link to some good product examples directly from your "Knives 101" page, so I can immediately read through your suggestions and pick some good knives to go with. You may even want to offer some "starter sets," like a Gyuto with a Funayuki as a package together...but I know you think sets are bullshit, so... ;-) EDIT: And in general I would say to highlight the "Knives 101" page--it strikes me from reading some of the other responses in this thread that dropping people into the knife selection with little guidance to go on is causing confusion. You could probably kill it if you help guide us ignorant foreigners through buying a Japanese knife--seriously, I really think this could really take off with the right approach.

steve19 11y ago

Only cutlery/kitchen knives is limiting your market. The custom tactical and custom outdoor knife market is huge and the customers can never get enough. The best "pocket knife" I own sells for $500, and this is considered mid-range. You are missing out on this action.

onion2k 11y ago
The market for kitchen knives is quite a lot bigger than the market for pocket knives.
buttermilk 11y ago
Well, both of you are right. The kitchen knife market in larger by way of necessity. However, I suspect that the market for outdoor knives >$500 is larger than that of kitchen knives. I do have kitchen knives showing up soon above $800 and am talking to makers that produce knives around $1500. Still, I'm interested in outdoor and pocket knives. I plan on integrating them within a year. For now though, I'm trying to find a great EDC knife <$100. If you've got any suggestions on any of these fronts, I'd be happy to hear them!

NamTaf 11y ago

It's worth you doing a pass across your product descriptions. Randomly clicking on one, I found this statement [1]: "You can read more about Shigehiro knives under the tab to the left." Except that there's no tab to the left; the tab you refer to is actually across the top of the page. Also, it took me 3 or so attempts to find which tab you meant specifically. People are paying hundreds of dollars for a knife. They expect the experience to be flawless, not just the product shipped to them. [1]: http://www.buttermilksupply.com/shop/knives/shigehiro-kasumi-santoku-180mm/ http://www.buttermilksupply.com/shop/knives/shigehiro-kasumi...

rtpg 11y ago

So much of this copy seems to be "other knives suck" rather than "our knives are cool". Why would I ever want to go through the purchase process if I'm on the fence and see this? Also, just personal but I don't think "Buttermilk Supply" is a super name for a knife vendor, but naming is tricky. The wording is a major turnoff for me

joshuapants 11y ago
> Why would I ever want to go through the purchase process if I'm on the fence and see this? You must not be the target market. They want to sell to people who like knives that don't suck.
GBond 11y ago
I agree. Target should be foodie/ home chef types who are willing to invest in the best. "Our knives are cool" is a better message for them.
- buttermilk 11y ago
  That, along with pros, certainly is my target. That's the message that I hope to make clear. Do you have any specific copy that stands out as not saying this?
buttermilk 11y ago
Thanks for the feedback. I know I'm definitely guilty of this on the "Which knife should I buy?" page, and I'll be updating it today. Besides that, could you point out other areas that read like this to you? I'm certainly not interested in shaming or sounding aggressively negative. In response to the name, I'll be selling a wider selection than just knives. The offering looks limited now but it'll soon be expanded to everything necessary to working as a chef, or tools and supplies that would be worth having at home. The emphasis, though, will always be on knives. I know the name doesn't inform anyone that we're selling knives, but I personally like the name and wanted to take the approach of how we name restaurants. Something to suggest the experience.

bensummers 11y ago

Here's an entertaining talk by someone who created a similar site, although not out of a love of knives. http://www.primeconf.com/talks/pete-duncanson http://www.primeconf.com/talks/pete-duncanson

venomsnake 11y ago

Not a single Sakai made laser. Shame on you. Anyway it is good to see new players coming. Although your site a slightly hipsterish feel to it. Good luck ...

buttermilk 11y ago
Ha! I appreciate fingerpointing with some knowledge behind it. You're right, I don't currently have any Sakai lasers. Though some of my knives are made in Sakai. The two reasons I'm not stockpiling lasers are: -they're typically manufactured and not hand-forged (most of the better ones are hand-ground, however) and though I have no significant opposition to this, it's not where I wanted to start. I have limited resources and I'd prefer to support to individual craftsmen for now. -I've used a good handful, and I've loved very few. People lose their shit over the Sakai Yusuke, but I can't get into the samples I have. That said, I've owned and loved some Tanaka R2 knives. Crazy thin and also high performing. I'm working on stocking some soon. The hipsterish feel was not an accident. I wanted clean and hip with both modern and traditional elements. The other side of this spectrum has been done already!

gesman 11y ago

I love the quality of the site - top notch implementation of e-commerce portal. Could you forward me the coordinates of the person who built the site? gesman at mensk.com

buttermilk 11y ago
Hi Gesman. Thanks for the kind words! I was the one that built the site. What can I do for you?
- gesman 11y ago
  My wife wants to revamp poodleit.com - to make it look luxurious brand (everything is hand-made top quality items). She likes wordpress but does not use WooCommerce - she uses ecwid.com and wants to keep using it. Any ideas? gesman at mensk.com PS: i love everything about your site.
buttermilk 11y ago
If you'd like to get in touch, send me a note through the site, or to the email listed on the site.

UserRights 11y ago

WTF are random ads about webshops on HN page one?

buttermilk 11y ago
Not an ad! I was looking for any input, which so many people have been kind enough to offer me. Though I understand your irritation. My apologies.

dzlobin 11y ago

Worth pointing out the current place that almost every cook and chef in NYC make their source for knives: Korin (http://www.korin.com http://www.korin.com)

buttermilk 11y ago
Korin has definitely got a huge marketshare. I appreciate what they've done for the industry and the exposure they've given to crafted knives. Their website used to drive me crazy though and it was rare for me to find an exciting double-bevel knife. Love to them though.

buttermilk 11y ago

Wow. Thank you so much for all of the feedback and response. I appreciate this so much. I'll be going through each comment today with a response.

threeseven 11y ago

On my iPhone 6 (8.4) a short video of what seems to be a metalworker pops up and loops when I open your link from the HN iOS app. Just thought you may want to know.

thoughtpalette 11y ago

I live right off Logan Square. I always wondered what that Butterfat store was! Is this where you're based out of? Love the site. What are you using for the payment gateway? Stripe?