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I'm not sure anyone really loves suburbia, but once in place, car oriented development has a way of being self sustaining. This "Cycle of automobile dependency

I'm not sure anyone really loves suburbia, but once in place, car oriented development has a way of being self sustaining. This "Cycle of automobile dependency" image shows it pretty well. http://imgur.com/Y9vxbNN http://imgur.com/Y9vxbNN Only recently, with huge effort and many setbacks, are we starting to see cities break out of car oriented development and this endless suburban sprawl creating loop. I'm a bit concerned that the advent of the self driving car could take us backward to more car oriented development and suburbia.

LordKano 11y ago
I'm not sure anyone really loves suburbia I would guess that has a lot to do with how one defines the term. I love living outside of the city. I wouldn't have it any other way. When I'm ready to retire, I plan to move even further away from the city. I grew up in the suburbs. I am raising my children in the suburbs. I detest going into the city. The traffic, the parking, the population density and the crammed nature of city living all irritate me to no end. Unfortunately, I have to go into the city for work. That is the primary reason why I'm waiting until retirement to move further away. Within the last 10 years we have had a real problem in the area. The gentrification of certain inner-city areas has made it impossible for the low income residents to remain there, so they've been moving out to the suburbs and bringing a lot of crime with them. Try as we might to escape the problems of city living that drove us out two generations ago, the city keeps sending its problems our way.
- Tiktaalik 11y ago
  Yeah absolutely I'm critical of suburbia as I see it currently implemented. There's nothing wrong with the concept of living outside of the city, but the problem is the design and form of development that many suburban cities have taken.
- mixmastamyk 11y ago
  > The traffic, the parking, That's the result of a poorly planned city, not intrinsic to cities. If you've been to Europe, or even NYC, you might have experienced the freedom of jumping on a train to downtown and back, with enough exercise to keep you healthy.
  - LordKano 11y ago
    Freedom isn't the word that I would associate with being bound by train schedules and routes. Old cities, like NYC or London were established before the existence of the automobile. It makes sense that they were designed to move large numbers of people without automobiles. I don't live near such a city. The geography of my area prevents the kind of mass transit system that exists in NYC.
    - bronson 11y ago
      Would you rather be bound by rush hour, car accidents, and highway routes? No matter what you choose, you're bound by something.
      - LordKano 11y ago
        Agreed, it's a trade off. Here, yes. I prefer those things over the list of things that I mentioned previously. I have arranged my work schedule to miss the worst of both inbound and outbound rush hour. When I'm outside of my regular work hours, on evenings and weekends, there is much more freedom in driving one's self as opposed to waiting for public transportation. For those of us who are so inclined, public transportation is still an option.
    - sosuke 11y ago
      I can sympathize, Austin TX is built upon a giant rock of limestone which extremely difficult to develop into. All of our mass transit options that have come up connect to no-where.
      - avn2109 11y ago
        As a former tunnel boring engineer, I can attest that mining tunnels through consistent rock is vastly easier than through mixed geologies such as Manhattan island. Also there is less stuff (utilities, metal debris, etc) underground in Austin. There are undoubtedly historical reasons why Austin lacks sane transit but technical difficulties while boring is almost certainly not one of them.
- s73v3r 11y ago
  The traffic and parking problems are there due to the lack of public transit, which is in part due to the spending of transportation funds on subsidizing you in the suburbs instead of building public transit.
  - LordKano 11y ago
    The city in no way subsidizes us. Unless, of course, you mean that because we have the option of not living in the city then they don't get our property tax dollars because we chose to live somewhere else. I pay taxes to my county and my suburban municipality. The city-proper does virtually nothing for me. The city is not entitled to any of my money.
    - s73v3r 11y ago
      There's also the roads which allow you to get from point A to point B which are subsidizing you, and there's the federal gas subsidy which is also subsidizing your lifestyle. And if the city proper really did nothing for you, then why would you be working there?
      - LordKano 11y ago
        There's also the roads which allow you to get from point A to point B which are subsidizing you Most of which are maintained by the county, to which I pay taxes. and there's the federal gas subsidy which is also subsidizing your lifestyle. From the FEDERAL government, to which I also pay taxes. Much of the road maintenance is also done by the state government, to which I pay taxes as well. And if the city proper really did nothing for you, then why would you be working there? Because decades ago, my employer put offices in the city and it's more expensive to move them than it is to stay put. Not all of us are working for start-ups. Some of us have employers that predate the interstate highway system. As telecommuting becomes more of a factor, I will spend less and less time in the city. Hopefully, it'll get to the point where I spend one day here every five years.
- danans 11y ago
  Honest question. Why should low income residents remain in inner cities? If they can afford it, why should they be discouraged from moving to suburbs if suburbs suit them, the same way suburbs suit you?
  - LordKano 11y ago
    For those who can afford it, it's not a problem. I'm more opposed to how we subsidize it through programs like "Section 8".
- smrtinsert 11y ago
  yeah. lived in a city a long time, but living in a va suburb now is bliss by comparison. trees, peace and quiet. walkable groceries were great, but choice from top grocers within a few minutes by car is even better - wegmans, whole foods, even harris teeters. not to mention getting anywhere takes like 5-10 minutes. what do i miss? a great modern restaurant experience, but classic ethnic is great out here - indian, chinese, mexican etc. factor in better schools for your children for "free" and i can't see a reason to live in a city.
  - rayiner 11y ago
    In what VA suburb can you get anywhere in a few minutes by car? In most of Fairfax County you have to drive 10-15 minutes just to get to a drug store. The only exception is the satellite cities (Vienna, Reston, etc). And what's the commute look like for you and your spouse?
    - hudibras 11y ago
      Based on being ten minutes or less from a Wegman's, I'm going to guess Fairfax or Alexandria.
      - rayiner 11y ago
        Both are cities...
joshyeager 11y ago
I love suburbia. Living in a city is stressful and crowded. I'd like to live in a rural environment, but then I'd have to drive a very long way to get to work, stores, and entertainment. Living in a quiet suburb gives me the best of both worlds. It's only a 10 minute drive to the downtown library, good restaurants, and other fun stuff. Since I picked a job that's located near my suburb, my commute is also short and avoids highways. And I don't have to fight city traffic or interact with lots of surrounding people in my everyday life. Sure, I can't walk to ten different restaurants and an art museum, but that's pretty low on my list of wants.
- Tiktaalik 11y ago
  You're doing it right by living close to your work. Suburbs work well when they're really just small complete cities. Nothing wrong with that. What I was thinking when I when I wrote "I'm not sure anyone loves suburbia" was that I'm not sure anyone loves that big suburban commute to the city. If that's eliminated, or mitigated by excellent transit connections (ie. pre-automobile street car suburbs), then a lot of negatives go away.
  - joshyeager 11y ago
    Oh, yeah. I definitely agree with that.
  - ryandrake 11y ago
    One of the chief advantages of suburban life is cost. I don't like suburbia, but I deal with it because I'm not rich enough to live close to work. Sure, I have the additional cost of maintaining and fueling a vehicle[1], and the stress of a 2+ hour commute each way, but that's far outweighed by housing being 3X cheaper, and the decent public schools (I don't have to pay for private schooling for the kid). 1: which is, really, not THAT much more in terms of cost per mile than using public transportation
    - rayiner 11y ago
      > One of the chief advantages of suburban life is cost. And that's entirely a function of bad city design. When I lived in New York, I lived in a Westchester suburb satellite city over 20 miles away from the city. I had a 35 minute commute by train right to Manhattan. There are tons of such suburbs in Westchester, because they have train lines running through the whole area. Meanwhile, my parents live in D.C. suburbs that are similarly priced, half the distance out of the city, but where the commuting options are a 1-1.5+ hour drive. In Westchester you've got a little downtown and can walk to shops and restaurants. In the D.C. suburbs you have to drive 20 minutes just to get to the drug store. It's all about city design.

LordKano 11y ago

I'm not sure anyone really loves suburbia I would guess that has a lot to do with how one defines the term. I love living outside of the city. I wouldn't have it any other way. When I'm ready to retire, I plan to move even further away from the city. I grew up in the suburbs. I am raising my children in the suburbs. I detest going into the city. The traffic, the parking, the population density and the crammed nature of city living all irritate me to no end. Unfortunately, I have to go into the city for work. That is the primary reason why I'm waiting until retirement to move further away. Within the last 10 years we have had a real problem in the area. The gentrification of certain inner-city areas has made it impossible for the low income residents to remain there, so they've been moving out to the suburbs and bringing a lot of crime with them. Try as we might to escape the problems of city living that drove us out two generations ago, the city keeps sending its problems our way.

Tiktaalik 11y ago
Yeah absolutely I'm critical of suburbia as I see it currently implemented. There's nothing wrong with the concept of living outside of the city, but the problem is the design and form of development that many suburban cities have taken.
mixmastamyk 11y ago
> The traffic, the parking, That's the result of a poorly planned city, not intrinsic to cities. If you've been to Europe, or even NYC, you might have experienced the freedom of jumping on a train to downtown and back, with enough exercise to keep you healthy.
- LordKano 11y ago
  Freedom isn't the word that I would associate with being bound by train schedules and routes. Old cities, like NYC or London were established before the existence of the automobile. It makes sense that they were designed to move large numbers of people without automobiles. I don't live near such a city. The geography of my area prevents the kind of mass transit system that exists in NYC.
  - bronson 11y ago
    Would you rather be bound by rush hour, car accidents, and highway routes? No matter what you choose, you're bound by something.
    - LordKano 11y ago
      Agreed, it's a trade off. Here, yes. I prefer those things over the list of things that I mentioned previously. I have arranged my work schedule to miss the worst of both inbound and outbound rush hour. When I'm outside of my regular work hours, on evenings and weekends, there is much more freedom in driving one's self as opposed to waiting for public transportation. For those of us who are so inclined, public transportation is still an option.
  - sosuke 11y ago
    I can sympathize, Austin TX is built upon a giant rock of limestone which extremely difficult to develop into. All of our mass transit options that have come up connect to no-where.
    - avn2109 11y ago
      As a former tunnel boring engineer, I can attest that mining tunnels through consistent rock is vastly easier than through mixed geologies such as Manhattan island. Also there is less stuff (utilities, metal debris, etc) underground in Austin. There are undoubtedly historical reasons why Austin lacks sane transit but technical difficulties while boring is almost certainly not one of them.
s73v3r 11y ago
The traffic and parking problems are there due to the lack of public transit, which is in part due to the spending of transportation funds on subsidizing you in the suburbs instead of building public transit.
- LordKano 11y ago
  The city in no way subsidizes us. Unless, of course, you mean that because we have the option of not living in the city then they don't get our property tax dollars because we chose to live somewhere else. I pay taxes to my county and my suburban municipality. The city-proper does virtually nothing for me. The city is not entitled to any of my money.
  - s73v3r 11y ago
    There's also the roads which allow you to get from point A to point B which are subsidizing you, and there's the federal gas subsidy which is also subsidizing your lifestyle. And if the city proper really did nothing for you, then why would you be working there?
    - LordKano 11y ago
      There's also the roads which allow you to get from point A to point B which are subsidizing you Most of which are maintained by the county, to which I pay taxes. and there's the federal gas subsidy which is also subsidizing your lifestyle. From the FEDERAL government, to which I also pay taxes. Much of the road maintenance is also done by the state government, to which I pay taxes as well. And if the city proper really did nothing for you, then why would you be working there? Because decades ago, my employer put offices in the city and it's more expensive to move them than it is to stay put. Not all of us are working for start-ups. Some of us have employers that predate the interstate highway system. As telecommuting becomes more of a factor, I will spend less and less time in the city. Hopefully, it'll get to the point where I spend one day here every five years.
danans 11y ago
Honest question. Why should low income residents remain in inner cities? If they can afford it, why should they be discouraged from moving to suburbs if suburbs suit them, the same way suburbs suit you?
- LordKano 11y ago
  For those who can afford it, it's not a problem. I'm more opposed to how we subsidize it through programs like "Section 8".
smrtinsert 11y ago
yeah. lived in a city a long time, but living in a va suburb now is bliss by comparison. trees, peace and quiet. walkable groceries were great, but choice from top grocers within a few minutes by car is even better - wegmans, whole foods, even harris teeters. not to mention getting anywhere takes like 5-10 minutes. what do i miss? a great modern restaurant experience, but classic ethnic is great out here - indian, chinese, mexican etc. factor in better schools for your children for "free" and i can't see a reason to live in a city.
- rayiner 11y ago
  In what VA suburb can you get anywhere in a few minutes by car? In most of Fairfax County you have to drive 10-15 minutes just to get to a drug store. The only exception is the satellite cities (Vienna, Reston, etc). And what's the commute look like for you and your spouse?
  - hudibras 11y ago
    Based on being ten minutes or less from a Wegman's, I'm going to guess Fairfax or Alexandria.
    - rayiner 11y ago
      Both are cities...

joshyeager 11y ago

I love suburbia. Living in a city is stressful and crowded. I'd like to live in a rural environment, but then I'd have to drive a very long way to get to work, stores, and entertainment. Living in a quiet suburb gives me the best of both worlds. It's only a 10 minute drive to the downtown library, good restaurants, and other fun stuff. Since I picked a job that's located near my suburb, my commute is also short and avoids highways. And I don't have to fight city traffic or interact with lots of surrounding people in my everyday life. Sure, I can't walk to ten different restaurants and an art museum, but that's pretty low on my list of wants.

Tiktaalik 11y ago
You're doing it right by living close to your work. Suburbs work well when they're really just small complete cities. Nothing wrong with that. What I was thinking when I when I wrote "I'm not sure anyone loves suburbia" was that I'm not sure anyone loves that big suburban commute to the city. If that's eliminated, or mitigated by excellent transit connections (ie. pre-automobile street car suburbs), then a lot of negatives go away.
- joshyeager 11y ago
  Oh, yeah. I definitely agree with that.
- ryandrake 11y ago
  One of the chief advantages of suburban life is cost. I don't like suburbia, but I deal with it because I'm not rich enough to live close to work. Sure, I have the additional cost of maintaining and fueling a vehicle[1], and the stress of a 2+ hour commute each way, but that's far outweighed by housing being 3X cheaper, and the decent public schools (I don't have to pay for private schooling for the kid). 1: which is, really, not THAT much more in terms of cost per mile than using public transportation
  - rayiner 11y ago
    > One of the chief advantages of suburban life is cost. And that's entirely a function of bad city design. When I lived in New York, I lived in a Westchester suburb satellite city over 20 miles away from the city. I had a 35 minute commute by train right to Manhattan. There are tons of such suburbs in Westchester, because they have train lines running through the whole area. Meanwhile, my parents live in D.C. suburbs that are similarly priced, half the distance out of the city, but where the commuting options are a 1-1.5+ hour drive. In Westchester you've got a little downtown and can walk to shops and restaurants. In the D.C. suburbs you have to drive 20 minutes just to get to the drug store. It's all about city design.