5 ms·

Your post basically boils down to: 1. You don't trust the police/legal system. 2. You trust our own community more. Not saying I agree or disagree, but there

by edanm 11y ago

Your post basically boils down to: 1. You don't trust the police/legal system. 2. You trust our own community more. Not saying I agree or disagree, but there are a LOT of people who would really disagree with this, and a lot more who would think that someone saying "why involved the actual people the public has chosen to deal with this, we can deal with it ourselves" would be very wrong.

marssaxman 11y ago
It's hard to imagine how anyone familiar with any part of the police/legal system's pattern of clueless, ham-handed, hierarchy-ridden interaction with technology over the last 30 years could find justification to continue extending them trust.
- kbenson 11y ago
  So what are we supposed to do instead? Rely on self policing by the individuals or the industry? The the police or judicial system is off track, you attempt to correct them, not ignore them and route around them. That may unfortunately end up with injustice for some while the correction is ongoing, but that's the normal state. There's always correction that needs to happen, and there's always injustice, that's the normal state, the point is to try to minimize the injustice as much as possible. Ignoring the built in mechanisms for steering the government in the right direction doesn't yield a better situation in the end.
  - marssaxman 11y ago
    If an angry bear is terrorizing your campground, then yes, call fish & wildlife so they can shoot it with a tranq dart and haul it off somewhere safe. In the meantime, though, do you go about your life as though nothing is wrong? Hell no, you get the fuck away from the angry bear! And tossing chocolate bars into your neighbor's campsite in hopes that the angry bear will wreck their stuff is just not cool.
    - kbenson 11y ago
      I agree, but I fail to see how that relates to the current context. Unless the unruly bear is these security researchers, the fleeing campers are other security researchers in the same field, and their fleeing is them correctly assessing that some LEA is going to be taking down any bears nearby that even twitch wrong after this. Bad actors ruin it for everyone.
      - marssaxman 11y ago
        It is true that bad actors ruin it for everyone, and that's why it does not make sense to interact with cops if you have any way of avoiding them. You have no way of knowing which ones are the bad actors until it's too late to do anything about it, and you have no recourse once they have decided to mess with you. Furthermore, they have effectively unlimited resources when it comes to making your life difficult. You seem to think that because the police are theoretically under democratic oversight, that one can safely interact with cops as though the nominal rules of engagement will restrict them, but even if - in the long run - it is possible to rein them in, the law enforcement system we actually have right now is unpredictable, unjust, and unsafe.
        kbenson 11y ago
        If you don't want to interact with the police, you shouldn't do illegal things, or present your actions as possibly illegal. If you distrust the police to the degree that you think even if your actions weren't illegal you will still have negative consequences from interacting with them, definitely don't do the above. When someone's actions extend to endangering the public to the degree we see here (which I think is obvious once you've watched the video), they are past any good will I would have extended them in not contacting the police for fear of an overreaction. Their clear disregard for public safety is reason enough for me. Additionally, on the chance that it was entirely intentional and they are counting on the media and possibly even law enforcement response to help make this an issue, they they definitely don't need our restraint, and nor do they want it.
        11y ago
  - geofft 11y ago
    "So what are we supposed to do instead" and "Do I trust the police right now" are different questions. I don't like the fact that I trust self-policing by any community (even my own) more than the institution that is supposed to be doing policing. But whether I like it doesn't affect things. I agree that it is important for us, as a free society, to fix policing. In the meantime, the best way to minimize injustice is not to invoke police when there is no immedate threat that can't be otherwise solved.
    - pixl97 11y ago
      With other recent news releases about insiders being fired in internal affairs departments for findings against the police, I believe, we must assume that the police are self-policing in their own right.
    - kbenson 11y ago
      This is exactly why I don't think self policing is suitable. If someone broke the law and endangered other people, you or I as possible community members should not be able to decide no police action is involved when others are the people that were actually endangered. Do the people on the road during this situation not have a voice? We are not incentivized correctly to handle this situation suitably. The police and judicial system sometimes have conflicting incentives as well, but at least they are aligned more with the public good than ours are. There are laws and they are, for the most part, rewarded for enforcing them.
      - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
        >Do the people on the road during this situation not have a voice? Of course they do. They can call the highway patrol or 911 and report a disabled vehicle. Let's imagine how that call would go. 911: 911, What's your emergency? Driver: Hi, there was a vehicle travelling slowly on the freeway with its emergency flashers on, I had to switch lanes. Pause... Driver: Hello? 911: Sorry, I was waiting for you to finish. Was there any other information? Did the driver or occupants appear to be in distress? Driver: I don't think so, he was alone and appeared to be talking to someone, perhaps on hands-free, or maybe On-Star? 911: 911 is for emergencies only, in the future please report events of this type to local authorities' non-emergency number accessible via 411. Goodbye.
- freehunter 11y ago
  Have you seen the damage being caused by "hackers" lately? I don't trust the police, but I don't trust my fellow hackers any more, especially when you consider their clueless, ham-handed interaction with the general public over the last 30 years.
  - marssaxman 11y ago
    Hackers can steal your money. You may be able to get reimbursed, depending on how they did it. The novel thing about this Jeep story is precisely the fact that hackers are demonstrating an ability to do something worse than stealing money. The cops can wreck your house, break your stuff, take your money, shoot your dog, deprive you of your liberty, and - if they think they can get away with describing you as a threat - shoot you dead. Even if you spend the time and money it would take to prove in court that all of this activity was illegal and unjustified, most of the time you'll fail, and even if you succeed you'll never get anything back. I don't trust hackers or cops, but I can sure as hell see which one is the bigger threat.
    - freehunter 11y ago
      It's not really novel because hackers are having a physical presence, it's novel because hackers are attacking cars. Even then, it's novel because hackers are remotely controlling cars. They've been able to unlock your car and drive away with nothing but their Android phone for years. Meanwhile hackers can break into the control systems for the power grid and shut down electricity, causing major damage. They can open or close hydroelectric dams, causing flooding and death. They can control hospital systems and kill or injure patients. They can control the airplane you're riding on while sitting in their seat. And all of these have been demoed at security conferences I've been to. I've seen these all in person. There's a lot of physical harm that hackers can do. Sure, with a cop it's more personal since they're standing there in front of you pulling the trigger and a hacker doesn't even have to see your face. Love them or hate them, both hackers and cops exist for a reason and are not going anywhere any time soon. One of the reason hackers exist is to point out dangerous security flaws like this. One of the reasons cops exist is because sometimes hackers are just as dangerous as the actions they're trying to draw attention to.

by edanm 11y ago

marssaxman 11y ago

It's hard to imagine how anyone familiar with any part of the police/legal system's pattern of clueless, ham-handed, hierarchy-ridden interaction with technology over the last 30 years could find justification to continue extending them trust.

kbenson 11y ago
So what are we supposed to do instead? Rely on self policing by the individuals or the industry? The the police or judicial system is off track, you attempt to correct them, not ignore them and route around them. That may unfortunately end up with injustice for some while the correction is ongoing, but that's the normal state. There's always correction that needs to happen, and there's always injustice, that's the normal state, the point is to try to minimize the injustice as much as possible. Ignoring the built in mechanisms for steering the government in the right direction doesn't yield a better situation in the end.
- marssaxman 11y ago
  If an angry bear is terrorizing your campground, then yes, call fish & wildlife so they can shoot it with a tranq dart and haul it off somewhere safe. In the meantime, though, do you go about your life as though nothing is wrong? Hell no, you get the fuck away from the angry bear! And tossing chocolate bars into your neighbor's campsite in hopes that the angry bear will wreck their stuff is just not cool.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    I agree, but I fail to see how that relates to the current context. Unless the unruly bear is these security researchers, the fleeing campers are other security researchers in the same field, and their fleeing is them correctly assessing that some LEA is going to be taking down any bears nearby that even twitch wrong after this. Bad actors ruin it for everyone.
    - marssaxman 11y ago
      It is true that bad actors ruin it for everyone, and that's why it does not make sense to interact with cops if you have any way of avoiding them. You have no way of knowing which ones are the bad actors until it's too late to do anything about it, and you have no recourse once they have decided to mess with you. Furthermore, they have effectively unlimited resources when it comes to making your life difficult. You seem to think that because the police are theoretically under democratic oversight, that one can safely interact with cops as though the nominal rules of engagement will restrict them, but even if - in the long run - it is possible to rein them in, the law enforcement system we actually have right now is unpredictable, unjust, and unsafe.
      - kbenson 11y ago
        If you don't want to interact with the police, you shouldn't do illegal things, or present your actions as possibly illegal. If you distrust the police to the degree that you think even if your actions weren't illegal you will still have negative consequences from interacting with them, definitely don't do the above. When someone's actions extend to endangering the public to the degree we see here (which I think is obvious once you've watched the video), they are past any good will I would have extended them in not contacting the police for fear of an overreaction. Their clear disregard for public safety is reason enough for me. Additionally, on the chance that it was entirely intentional and they are counting on the media and possibly even law enforcement response to help make this an issue, they they definitely don't need our restraint, and nor do they want it.
        11y ago
- geofft 11y ago
  "So what are we supposed to do instead" and "Do I trust the police right now" are different questions. I don't like the fact that I trust self-policing by any community (even my own) more than the institution that is supposed to be doing policing. But whether I like it doesn't affect things. I agree that it is important for us, as a free society, to fix policing. In the meantime, the best way to minimize injustice is not to invoke police when there is no immedate threat that can't be otherwise solved.
  - pixl97 11y ago
    With other recent news releases about insiders being fired in internal affairs departments for findings against the police, I believe, we must assume that the police are self-policing in their own right.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    This is exactly why I don't think self policing is suitable. If someone broke the law and endangered other people, you or I as possible community members should not be able to decide no police action is involved when others are the people that were actually endangered. Do the people on the road during this situation not have a voice? We are not incentivized correctly to handle this situation suitably. The police and judicial system sometimes have conflicting incentives as well, but at least they are aligned more with the public good than ours are. There are laws and they are, for the most part, rewarded for enforcing them.
    - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
      >Do the people on the road during this situation not have a voice? Of course they do. They can call the highway patrol or 911 and report a disabled vehicle. Let's imagine how that call would go. 911: 911, What's your emergency? Driver: Hi, there was a vehicle travelling slowly on the freeway with its emergency flashers on, I had to switch lanes. Pause... Driver: Hello? 911: Sorry, I was waiting for you to finish. Was there any other information? Did the driver or occupants appear to be in distress? Driver: I don't think so, he was alone and appeared to be talking to someone, perhaps on hands-free, or maybe On-Star? 911: 911 is for emergencies only, in the future please report events of this type to local authorities' non-emergency number accessible via 411. Goodbye.
freehunter 11y ago
Have you seen the damage being caused by "hackers" lately? I don't trust the police, but I don't trust my fellow hackers any more, especially when you consider their clueless, ham-handed interaction with the general public over the last 30 years.
- marssaxman 11y ago
  Hackers can steal your money. You may be able to get reimbursed, depending on how they did it. The novel thing about this Jeep story is precisely the fact that hackers are demonstrating an ability to do something worse than stealing money. The cops can wreck your house, break your stuff, take your money, shoot your dog, deprive you of your liberty, and - if they think they can get away with describing you as a threat - shoot you dead. Even if you spend the time and money it would take to prove in court that all of this activity was illegal and unjustified, most of the time you'll fail, and even if you succeed you'll never get anything back. I don't trust hackers or cops, but I can sure as hell see which one is the bigger threat.
  - freehunter 11y ago
    It's not really novel because hackers are having a physical presence, it's novel because hackers are attacking cars. Even then, it's novel because hackers are remotely controlling cars. They've been able to unlock your car and drive away with nothing but their Android phone for years. Meanwhile hackers can break into the control systems for the power grid and shut down electricity, causing major damage. They can open or close hydroelectric dams, causing flooding and death. They can control hospital systems and kill or injure patients. They can control the airplane you're riding on while sitting in their seat. And all of these have been demoed at security conferences I've been to. I've seen these all in person. There's a lot of physical harm that hackers can do. Sure, with a cop it's more personal since they're standing there in front of you pulling the trigger and a hacker doesn't even have to see your face. Love them or hate them, both hackers and cops exist for a reason and are not going anywhere any time soon. One of the reason hackers exist is to point out dangerous security flaws like this. One of the reasons cops exist is because sometimes hackers are just as dangerous as the actions they're trying to draw attention to.