8 ms·

I'm not sure that assisting people to treat drug overdoses themselves without medical supervision is unambiguously saving lives; many of those people would have

by cwyers 11y ago

I'm not sure that assisting people to treat drug overdoses themselves without medical supervision is unambiguously saving lives; many of those people would have been saved if they had sought medical treatment instead of self-aid, and I don't see any data about how many died attempting self-aid that could have been saved if they had sought medical attention.

mschuster91 11y ago
> many of those people would have been saved if they had sought medical treatment instead of self-aid The problem is that unlike here in Germany, where the state is required to be able to send help in 10-15 minutes at your house (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilfsfrist https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilfsfrist), there is no such requirement in the US. Overdoses are time critical, especially as not every overdosed guy gets noticed in time.
joesmo 11y ago
I'm not sure that assisting people to treat bleeding themselves without medical supervision is unambiguously saving lives; many of those people would have been saved if they had sought medical treatment instead of self-aid, and I don't see any data about how many died attempting self-aid that could have been saved if they had sought medical attention.
- cwyers 11y ago
  Very droll. But band-aids don't have side effects. Naloxone does. For instance:[1] > a reversal of opiate effects achieved too rapidly may induce nausea, vomiting, sweating, tremor, tachycardia, increased BP, seizures, ventricular tachycardia and fibrillation, pulmonary edema, and cardiac arrest, which may result in death. http://www.drugs.com/monograph/naloxone-hydrochloride.html http://www.drugs.com/monograph/naloxone-hydrochloride.html
  - marcos123 11y ago
    Those are not really side-effects of Naloxone, they are side-effects of reversing the effect of opiates. So if an addict were to quit an opiate addiction cold turkey, they would experience some (or very rarely, all) of the effects you listed. If you give Naloxone to someone without opiates in their system, they wouldn't experience those effects. What Naloxone does is kick opiates off of opiate receptors in the body, which instantly puts the addict into a state of opiate withdrawal.
  - joesmo 11y ago
    Not having Naloxone on hand also has a guaranteed side-effect: death. That makes its side effects irrelevant.
nnbvv 11y ago
Lots of users don't seek medical treatment because they're afraid they'll be arrested. I know this sounds unbelievable, but it's true... I found and called in the heroin overdose of two of my friends, and not only were the paramedics very leisurely in their response (walking slowly up the stairs to get to the bedroom where my friends were unconscious), but the cops threatened to charge me with selling the heroin to my friends. I believe they were bluffing in an attempt to get me to snitch on the person who really did sell it to them, but it's apparently not unprecedented for overdose victims to be charged with possession and the people who called it in to be charged with distribution. Thinking about that night still makes me angry. It's one of maybe three really terrible experiences I've had with police in the US. My friends both lived, though one had his heart stop completely for 1.5 minutes and had to be revived via a Naloxone shot to the chest.
- cwyers 11y ago
  > I know this sounds unbelievable It doesn't sound unbelievable at all. I just wish the article had asked more questions and provided more information, rather than presenting the subject uncritically.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  Considering that children forced into prostitution are sometimes charged with the crime of being a prostitute when the police 'save' them, I'm not surprised about this.
- JshWright 11y ago
  What you interpreted as "leisurely" was likely "caution". Overdoses can be very dynamic and dangerous scenes, and EMS will approach carefully. Did the extra 5 seconds have any impact on your friend's outcome? I don't know what actually happened, but your description is not correct. "A Naloxone shot to the chest" is not something that is done.
  - nnbvv 11y ago
    I didn't witness the Naloxone shot so I don't doubt that you're right about that, but I know he got one because the cops told us and we found the empty syringe afterward. I really don't feel like it was caution. The cops were already at the scene. I talked to the paramedics as they entered the house. The whole thing was conducted with a total lack of urgency -- I got the impression from the cops and the paramedics that they were just pissed off to be there, tired of dealing with stupid junkie kids.

by cwyers 11y ago

mschuster91 11y ago

> many of those people would have been saved if they had sought medical treatment instead of self-aid The problem is that unlike here in Germany, where the state is required to be able to send help in 10-15 minutes at your house (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilfsfrist https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilfsfrist), there is no such requirement in the US. Overdoses are time critical, especially as not every overdosed guy gets noticed in time.

joesmo 11y ago

I'm not sure that assisting people to treat bleeding themselves without medical supervision is unambiguously saving lives; many of those people would have been saved if they had sought medical treatment instead of self-aid, and I don't see any data about how many died attempting self-aid that could have been saved if they had sought medical attention.

cwyers 11y ago
Very droll. But band-aids don't have side effects. Naloxone does. For instance:[1] > a reversal of opiate effects achieved too rapidly may induce nausea, vomiting, sweating, tremor, tachycardia, increased BP, seizures, ventricular tachycardia and fibrillation, pulmonary edema, and cardiac arrest, which may result in death. http://www.drugs.com/monograph/naloxone-hydrochloride.html http://www.drugs.com/monograph/naloxone-hydrochloride.html
- marcos123 11y ago
  Those are not really side-effects of Naloxone, they are side-effects of reversing the effect of opiates. So if an addict were to quit an opiate addiction cold turkey, they would experience some (or very rarely, all) of the effects you listed. If you give Naloxone to someone without opiates in their system, they wouldn't experience those effects. What Naloxone does is kick opiates off of opiate receptors in the body, which instantly puts the addict into a state of opiate withdrawal.
- joesmo 11y ago
  Not having Naloxone on hand also has a guaranteed side-effect: death. That makes its side effects irrelevant.

nnbvv 11y ago

Lots of users don't seek medical treatment because they're afraid they'll be arrested. I know this sounds unbelievable, but it's true... I found and called in the heroin overdose of two of my friends, and not only were the paramedics very leisurely in their response (walking slowly up the stairs to get to the bedroom where my friends were unconscious), but the cops threatened to charge me with selling the heroin to my friends. I believe they were bluffing in an attempt to get me to snitch on the person who really did sell it to them, but it's apparently not unprecedented for overdose victims to be charged with possession and the people who called it in to be charged with distribution. Thinking about that night still makes me angry. It's one of maybe three really terrible experiences I've had with police in the US. My friends both lived, though one had his heart stop completely for 1.5 minutes and had to be revived via a Naloxone shot to the chest.

cwyers 11y ago
> I know this sounds unbelievable It doesn't sound unbelievable at all. I just wish the article had asked more questions and provided more information, rather than presenting the subject uncritically.
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
Considering that children forced into prostitution are sometimes charged with the crime of being a prostitute when the police 'save' them, I'm not surprised about this.
JshWright 11y ago
What you interpreted as "leisurely" was likely "caution". Overdoses can be very dynamic and dangerous scenes, and EMS will approach carefully. Did the extra 5 seconds have any impact on your friend's outcome? I don't know what actually happened, but your description is not correct. "A Naloxone shot to the chest" is not something that is done.
- nnbvv 11y ago
  I didn't witness the Naloxone shot so I don't doubt that you're right about that, but I know he got one because the cops told us and we found the empty syringe afterward. I really don't feel like it was caution. The cops were already at the scene. I talked to the paramedics as they entered the house. The whole thing was conducted with a total lack of urgency -- I got the impression from the cops and the paramedics that they were just pissed off to be there, tired of dealing with stupid junkie kids.