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Startup founder reportedly jumped to her death from the top of NYC rooftop bar
- brianwawok 11y agoJust a friendly reminder that no matter how bad your startup is doing, or how much money you owe to who, or how much shame you feel.. life is worth a lot more than money. You can always earn more money, but you can't come back from the dead[0] [0] - Provable with current scientific tools
- chillingeffect 11y agoAgreed. Also, it's not even just about money, it's about success and recognition and accepting yourself, win or fail.
- exelius 11y agoSuicide is also about more than just a failed startup. You don't kill yourself because your company failed; there were likely other issues such as depression that she was unable to overcome, though a struggling business doesn't help. If you're depressed, accepting yourself is hard even if you're winning.
- rquantz 11y agoIn fact, winning can make it worse. When you're successful and depressed, the dissonance between your outward success and your inner self loathing/misery can be very painful. You think, all these great things are happening and I still can't be happy. I must really be a worthless, ungrateful piece of shit if I attain everything I ever dreamed of and that's still not enough for me. If this doesn't make me happy, that means I'll never be happy. bla bla bla depression talk. Not that this is guaranteed, but I've experienced it and I would imagine others have too.
- throwaway9er 11y agoYes, well said, thanks. Also "Depression talk" is not you, which is difficult to internalize in the moment.
- throwaway9er 11y agoYes, depression is usually not about the money, but personal issues. My hardest days personally have been when things were going well and best were when I was unable to keep the lights on/pay bills. When the business was almost failing I had my significant other with me 24/7. After I ruined the most important relationship in my life, the business improved dramatically and I was mentally in a far worse place. I would happily leave the company to get her back or undo losing her. That's what people don't understand, you're an entrepreneur for the journey not the money (even if only subconsciously). Thus, people shouldn't assume there are money/ startup problems when someone is depressed.
- sarwechshar 11y agoI feel terrible for her family as well, perhaps not even knowing exactly what led her to do this (in which case some people may end up feeling guilty).
- jey 11y agoSuicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds resources for coping with pain. http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/ http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/
- eli_gottlieb 11y agoWell yes. We know. That's why it's tragic, horrible, and evil when someone is in such pain that they need to commit suicide. It's a blow for Pain over Joy, and for Despair over Hope, and a life destroyed to make that blow permanent.
- jey 11y agoOK. I posted it because I didn't always know. When I was 16, the message I received was that the rest of life would be more of the same and I should just learn to deal with it. I found some solace in the concept of a Final Protest.
- sarwechshar 11y agoThis is put really well and I'm sure a lot of people will find solice in it. Thanks for posting.
- oh_sigh 11y agoI'm wondering if any startup founders actually commit suicide because their startup is failing, or if they are just depressed and suicidal completely coincidentally. I ask this because I've never been in a situation where I could ever see suicide as a viable solution to any problem, and can't really wrap my head around some event happening which drives a previously sane and rational person to suicide, or even though of suicide
- myth_buster 11y agoYou are not your work. You are so much more. Stay strong. _________________________________________________________ Edit: Fred Wilson speaks more eloquently here: http://avc.com/2014/01/you-are-not-your-work/ http://avc.com/2014/01/you-are-not-your-work/
- therobot24 11y agoNot trying to criticize here, but i've never cared for the term "stay strong" it's like telling someone who's depressed to "just be happy". I get the sentiment though, just something about the phrase that irks me i guess.
- myth_buster 11y agoI agree with you. In the end these are just words and these are inefficient tools for the task. But as opposed to being a call to action, it's purpose is provide a supportive thought.
- humbertomn 11y agoI understand it as "I know the situation is hard, but try to keep your head up (don't do anything extreme) because things will get better if you fight for it"
- therobot24 11y agoYea i agree, but i'm not debating the meaning, rather the delivery. I really like the phrase, "you are not your work", because it comes from the opposite direction. To "stay strong" it sounds like you're not acknowledging that it's ok to be 'not strong'.
- chillingeffect 11y agoI agree completely. It presupposes that you're already strong and doesn't help you when you're not strong, so it ignores the real troubled time. Everyone goes through troubled times at least 10% of the time. (yes, that's 4 hours of a typical work week) Learning to handle those is very tough, but achievable. If the best you can do is tread water until it passes, that's good enough. And it's also okay for people to see us in our non-optimal states. It humanizes us to one another and actually makes us trust each other more than it "tarnishes" our reputation of excellence.
- onion2k 11y agoIf you're depressed making the first move to reach out to talk about your situation is really fucking hard, especially if people's perception of you is that you're some sort of go-getting independent business founder who can do everything. This is a reminder that it's worthwhile dropping an email/text/phone call to someone you've not spoken to for a while - it's possible that no one has reached out to them recently, and they need to talk. The worst that could happen is you have a chat, while the best that could happen, without wishing to sound overly melodramatic, is that you save their life.
- Zikes 11y agoI think we need to work on removing the stigma around general therapy. I have not personally seen a therapist, but of those I know who have, they almost always talk of it being a positive experience. In some cases, they have even advocated semi-regular therapy as a general health regimen, much like you might see a dentist or doctor regularly for checkups.
- stephengillie 11y agoPart of the stigma is the sheer number of well-meaning but unhelpful therapists. I went to several free and religious counselors when I was young, and had several worthless experiences. Most of them just wanted to hear what I had to say, and had no advice, as though hearing myself talk about my problems would solve them automatically. A few gave suggestions but not things that would realistically help (Maybe you should try to be more social, to deal with your depression). Some put me into group therapy with people whose problems were much worse than mine, and this gave me the sense that my problems were small and not worth their time. Having people goto therapy sounds nice in practice. In reality there are more problems in attending therapy than it promises to resolve, so you're likely to have even more problems than you started with.
- Zikes 11y agoI'm sorry you had a bad experience, I hope you were able to overcome your issues regardless.
- codahale 11y ago800-273-8255 National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 24 hours a day, 7 days a week or www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org
- codezero 11y agoInternational help: http://www.befrienders.org/find-a-helpline http://www.befrienders.org/find-a-helpline And for HN's healthy Indian population AASRA 24/7 helpline at +91-22-27546669 or +91-22-27546667. http://www.aasra.info http://www.aasra.info
- presty 11y agosome more info... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3169057/Faigy-Mayer-leaps-20-stories-rooftop-bar-death-bar-patrons-continue-drinking.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3169057/Faigy-Mayer-... http://heavy.com/news/2015/07/faigy-mayer-dead-suicide-jumps-rooftop-bar-new-york-appton/ http://heavy.com/news/2015/07/faigy-mayer-dead-suicide-jumps...
- alphanumeric0 11y agoHer upbringing likely was a factor as well as the stress of startup life. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3169057/Faigy-Mayer-leaps-20-stories-rooftop-bar-death-bar-patrons-continue-drinking.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3169057/Faigy-Mayer-...) This hits close to home, being a 30-something software developer, and having grown up in a very religious, anti-intellectual household. Very sad, and preventable.
- personlurking 11y agoThe article mentioned a religious documentary she was interviewed for. Here is that interview. https://youtu.be/TjDzR5plpS4?t=15m52s https://youtu.be/TjDzR5plpS4?t=15m52s
- alphanumeric0 11y agoThanks for that. I heard about the documentary months ago and was meaning to watch it.
- sixQuarks 11y agoPoor girl. The stress from her family situation coupled with startup stress finally got to her.
- melling 11y agoI talked to her a few times. The first time I met her I asked her to check out my app and give me her thoughts. A few days later she took the time to email me a couple of ideas. I thought I saw her recently as I was rushing home after a recent Meetup. Now I wish I'd stopped to say hi.
- gadders 11y agoWe're not journalists, but as suicide seems to be affected by social proof [1] perhaps we should bear these guidelines [2] in mind when commenting or finding an article to link to? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide#Social_proof_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide#Social_proof_m... [2] http://www.samaritans.org/media-centre/media-guidelines-reporting-suicide/advice-journalists-suicide-reporting-dos-and-donts http://www.samaritans.org/media-centre/media-guidelines-repo...
- codecamper 11y agoWhat a terrible shame! From her online profiles one can clearly see that she was thoughtful, sensitive, intelligent, creative, and beautiful. Authentic & moral people like that can be difficult to find.
- tjculbertson 11y agoIt is a shame. Just looking at her profiles and accomplishments you can tell she was special. Not to mention having the guts to switch from accounting to development as a woman in a male dominated industry. May you rest in peace Faigy. I will pray for you and your family.
- curiousjorge 11y agowtf is going on? seriously, why are these startup founders killing themselves? Why is it that they can't stop and walk away when what you are doing is not making you happy? Why do you put someone who is well off enough to throw you some pocket change above your own livelihood and your life? I just don't get it. >After she jumped, some customers continued to drink at the swanky bar ugh.
- Polecat 11y agoDepression is a disorder, it's not people who just felt a bit sad and then killed themselves because they didn't have their priorities strait.
- PopeOfNope 11y agoThe first question that comes to my mind when I hear about a startup death is: how much sleep did she get a night? How much did she drink on a regular basis? What drugs did she do on a regular basis? How much stress was she under on a regular basis? Working hard, partying hard, never sleeping and a crushing amount of stress is a recipe for death and dysfunction.
- eli_gottlieb 11y ago>seriously, why are these startup founders killing themselves? If I may be a politicizing dick, severe inequality means that seemingly small failures or successes can have massive, oversized influence on the course of someone's life, and also means that we socialize people, from youth, to take each possible failure or success that much more seriously, as that much more determining of their overall life course and meaning in the world. It runs directly contrary to imbuing resilience in people, and in society. Anxiety disorders and suicides are the price of having a society and a world in which increasingly many people have everything on the line, at every step, all the time.
- brerlapn 11y agoYou're making a fair point--and feeling like you have everything on the line at every step is most likely going to ramp up someone's level of anxiety and stress with all the negative impacts that entails. However, I also think there is a counterbalancing point that framing life as an all-encompassing economic gamble actually reinforces that anxiety and stress by making it seem like economics is the whole of existence--and for folks who are feeling overwhelmed by feeling like their failure or success hangs in the balance it is likely to drown out a more healthy counter-narrative which is that you're probably not "ruined" if you fail. It'll suck (believe me I'm still paying shitloads of student loans for a career I quit almost a decade ago), but you can still have friends and community and value things in life that aren't work or career. People who are at the point of attempting suicide have drowned out all those positives with a tunnel vision on the pressure of success/failure that is blinding them to other possibilities (see comments above about people who survived jumping from the Golden Gate Bridge). So yeah, the economics of operating without the feeling of a safety net sucks, but people who are starting to crumble under that safety net need to hear that the safety net isn't just their runway, it's also all the family and friends and life that they have or can build. Unfortunately in this particular case it sounds like she was in a transition and didn't quite have those solidly in place yet.
- jgrowl 11y agoNow this will be a beautiful death (I’m jumping out the window, I’m letting everything go)
- 20years 11y ago"Of the 242 entrepreneurs he surveyed, 49% reported having a mental-health condition" Wow! This is high. I wish the startup community pushed the importance of balance more. Instead it sometimes feels like a race to the bottom.
- Cshelton 11y agoI mean, the going stigma out there is, sorry Cuban, "You have to work 24/7/365, because business is a sport and there is always someone looking to kick your ass". The problem with this is we are human. We get stressed, we get depressed, we get overly confidant and then utterly destroyed when something does not work out that you've put everything into. The stigma of having to work 24/7/365 is just a saying. Balance of work, exercise, social interaction, relaxation, and sleep is far more important. Yes Mark Cuban said that, but what does he really do? Even when hustling very hard, he still went out to the bars with friends, still relaxed, etc. What he really meant is that when he WAS working, he was working incredibly hard. What I'm getting at is the quotes and the movies/shows of programmers pulling 24 hours straight is not healthy. Yes it has been done, even by very successful people...Bill Gates, but how many do you not hear about? The ones who take their own lives or become depressed for very long periods of time. Working like this is dangerous. Balance is key, we are only human.
- 20years 11y agoThis ^ 100% agree!
- throwaway9er 11y agoAs a founder who struggles with severe depression, one of the few bits of advice that I remember when personally in a dark place is from a physician that had met with thousands of suicidal patients. He said: "I've never had a patient who survived (suicidal thinking) and later wished that they had killed themselves." Sorry I couldn't find the quote and may be paraphrasing a bit, I share this because this personal mantra has kept me from the ledge when my thoughts were otherwise debilitating.
- johnbenwoo 11y agoLikewise, I read a news story (long time ago, source forgotten) that interviewed several people who had survived jumping from the Golden Gate Bridge. The reporter asked each one what thoughts went through their head after jumping before hitting the water. It wasn't relief or clarity - almost unanimously, it was "What have I done?!?" and immediate regret.
- blackkettle 11y agoThis was phrased really well in the movie/article, worth looking up: > “I instantly realized that everything in my life that I'd thought was unfixable was totally fixable — except for having just jumped."
- jlewallen 11y agoI was reminded of the same thing and got a few sentences into my reply before noticing yours. Here's a link to a study I had turned up as well: http://seattlefriends.org/files/seiden_study.pdf http://seattlefriends.org/files/seiden_study.pdf
- npizzolato 11y agoHere's the article in question. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/10/13/jumpers http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/10/13/jumpers Another powerful quote: "The guy was in his thirties, lived alone, pretty bare apartment. He’d written a note and left it on his bureau. It said, ‘I’m going to walk to the bridge. If one person smiles at me on the way, I will not jump.’"
- rokhayakebe 11y agoWe should not jump to conclusion and say this has anything to do with her startup. The most important sentence here is sprinted toward a shrubbery-lined. Someone who rushes (as in running) to their death is not similar to someone who walks and jumps.
- abc_lisper 11y agoIs her startup not doing well? Wonder why she did it, in front of people.
- eigenvalue 11y agoThis is so upsetting. After reading a few articles, I don't get the sense that this was about her startup (it doesn't seem like the company ever had any real revenues). She was apparently very depressed and struggling financially, coming to the end of her lease on her apartment with no place to go, and presumably unable to come to her family for help because of their disapproval of her secular lifestyle. It could easily have been a spontaneous decision on the roof that she didn't plan out or even really think about. It's just a shame that her close friends didn't realize how bad things had gotten and done more to help her (e.g., give/lend her money, offer a place to crash, a job offer, etc.) Often the only thing that stops people from suicide is the thought of the damage it would do to their parents and siblings; if your relationship with your family is in shambles, this sort of thing becomes less unthinkable.