7 ms·

Capitalist Soul Rises as Ho Chi Minh City Sheds Its Past

93 points by nyodeneD 11y ago

theunixbeard 11y ago
Also a good place for digital nomads & bootstrappers: https://medium.com/digital-nomad-stories/bootstrapping-in-saigon-fc9744367386 https://medium.com/digital-nomad-stories/bootstrapping-in-sa...
- rktjmp 11y ago
  I'm about to try the same thing in Mexico but reading that made me really home sick [sic] for Vietnam. Almost looking forward for when my visa in Mexico runs out and I have to leave...
DanielBMarkham 11y ago
I have a passion for history. I love reading biographies and hanging out on history forums. As we're getting to the 50-year mark past the American involvement in Vietnam, things are progressing in ways not anticipated at the time. Vietnam, like several other Asian countries, is embracing capitalism and entrepreneurs. Old enemies hug and pose for photographs. This seems to be a pattern, at least among American conflicts (I have not studied others very much). As the combatants grow into old age, it's not worth carrying a grudge around. Things that were worth dying and killing for 50 years ago are still important, but they're fights for young people. It becomes easier to see things from the other side. I'd argue that by simply having a huge presence of Americans in Vietnam for so many years, the two countries have become joined for the next century or so, much the same as having kids in a marriage joins the two partners together even if they can't stand one another. I also note that things may end up turning out better for Vietnam in terms of economic development than if South Vietnam had won the war -- which would have only institutionalized worse corruption than they currently have. This is all speculative, of course, but I seriously doubt anybody in the mid-70s would have guessed that this is where we'd all be 40 years later. It's been an interesting journey for both countries.
- sillygeese 11y ago
  > Things that were worth dying and killing for 50 years ago are still important, but they're fights for young people. So what was behind the Vietnam War that was worth dying and killing for? What would you have died and killed for, when young?
  - vasilipupkin 11y ago
    At the time, there was an existential struggle going on between Soviet Union and Europe/US. Vietnam war was ultimately the wrong turn in that struggle, but it was far less obviously wrong at the time.
    - logfromblammo 11y ago
      The so-called "domino theory" hypothesized that Communism could be modeled as a sort of ideological contagion. If one country became Communist, its neighbors were more likely to become Communist. So if left unchecked, Communism would spread throughout the world in a giant, red wave, leaving America as the last remaining bastion of freedom in the whole universe. This theory was given additional credence because apparently, the Communists believed in it, too. Well, it turns out that theory was just so much hot air.
      - vasilipupkin 11y ago
        yes. But it wasn't obvious at the time. Part of the reason it turned out to be hot air, because communists failed to execute on this strategy, at least in part because they had to fight against non communists. It was a dynamic system, not a static one
      - mafribe 11y ago
        In what sense was it hot air? Saloth Sar (better known as Pol Pot), radicalised by the French communist party, trained in Moscow, Belgrade and Beijing, took over neighbouring Cambodia, aided by the communists in Hanoi. Indeed the Cambodian Communist party was an offshoot of Viet Nam's People's Army (the armed forces of the Socialist Republic of Viet Nam). The domino theory was a good one, because, as you point out yourself, it described the explicit modus operandi of the communists. Where it failed, it failed primarily because the communists received serious pushback.
exhilaration 11y ago
No mention of Cuba in the article but I think we can all agree that increased engagement could very well lead to the same results - increased freedom and wealth for all Cubans. Interesting note on that topic: only 20 years after Bill Clinton normalized relations with Vietnam it's now "one of the most pro-American countries in Southeast Asia, with 78% of Vietnamese people viewing the U.S. favorably in 2015" according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States–Vietnam_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States–Vietnam_relation...
- cms07 11y ago
  How great was life for the average Cuban in pre-revolution days? I think if I were a Cuban I would be more than skeptical of undoing all of the positive things that have been accomplished since 1959.
  - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
    Getting your fingernails torn out by the secret police for criticizing the Castro regime isn't too great. http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/07/02/cuba-arbitrarily-detained-almost-1-000-dissidents-in-june-tortured-political-prisoners/ http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/07/02/cuba-a... Economically, $6,000 GDP per capita isn't much to be proud of, compared to the US aligned Puerto Rico which is at $27,000. https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_cd&idim=country:PRI:CRI:CUB&hl=en&dl=en https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&...
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      Puerto Rico isn't "US aligned", it's part of the US. There's a pretty big difference.
      - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
        Capitalistic economies in the region do much better, so who do you want me to compare to who is "fair?" Brazil, Argentia, Chile? https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_cd&idim=country:ARG:BRA:CHL&hl=en&dl=en https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&... Still 2x Cuba and with usually less fingernail pulling. Communism is a worldwide failure both political, human rights-wise, and economically. Lets stop being "edgy" and defend it for easily garnered anti-US upvotes.
lucasjans 11y ago
Hello Saigon! I'm curious what other tech entrepreneurs/nomads we have out here. I've met many interesting, passionate technology people here, some expats and some locals. It's great to see the diversity in the scene here, just like you would expect from a major US city. There's a lot of raw talent here, thanks to the outsourcing industry, university system, professional schools and huge number of young people looking to exceed their parents' standards. If you're in Saigon - what are you doing here? I have a US company and am building the product with a relatively small team. Web focused, microservices/React stack.
- jspaulding 11y ago
  Hey Lucas, I'd love to connect. I'm currently in Saigon bootstrapping http://thinklab.com http://thinklab.com Regarding talent -- what do you think about the technical talent here? I find myself still working with guys from Eastern Europe. Would be awesome to find some talent locally though.
  - nxh 11y ago
    You can check out this FB group https://www.facebook.com/groups/launchpad/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/launchpad/. It's the most well known discussion group for startups in Viet Nam. Around 70% of the posts include English translation.
- contingencies 11y ago
  Hi neighbours. I'm up the Red River from Hanoi in Yunnan, the far southwest corner of China. Often spend time in Vietnam, since 2000... lots of changes. Durian juice is the best! I have a friend and ex-colleague of 10 years who runs one of the big print publishing outfits in Saigon, let me know if you need an intro for ads.
- jamra 11y ago
  I'm building a team in Saigon right now. I've been traveling back and forth from Los Angeles. The talent can fluctuate, but if you know how to read resumes, you can find real gems. Those who graduated from public schools are quite good. The wealthy go to private. The work ethic is very solid.
peterjancelis 11y ago
Totally agree. Never felt so free to go about my life and business as in Saigon. Watch out with physical businesses however, foreigners can get scammed out of their stake.
- jamra 11y ago
  Do you have any personal experience you can share with foreigners getting scammed?
  - peterjancelis 11y ago
    There was a French accountant in his late 20s who came here with 50K EUR of life savings and opened a French restaurant with a local partner. Worked 7 days a week for 6 months, restaurant was losing money, one day he gets kicked out by his partner with the help from some of his gym friends. That guy is now back in France in a job. He somehow managed to find a girlfriend while starting his restaurant though. He's now engaged to the girl but she's still here.
  - refurb 11y ago
    I had a chance to talk to a Vietnamese-American (born in Vietnam) who has done a lot of business in Vietnam. I ask him about the opportunities for foreigners. His response was "the gov't is more than happy to let a few foreigners make out well to keep the investments coming, but if they want to, they can take everything you have and you'll have no recourse". Just an anecdote, but he has more experience in Vietnam than I do.

93 points by nyodeneD 11y ago

Also a good place for digital nomads & bootstrappers: https://medium.com/digital-nomad-stories/bootstrapping-in-saigon-fc9744367386 https://medium.com/digital-nomad-stories/bootstrapping-in-sa...

rktjmp 11y ago
I'm about to try the same thing in Mexico but reading that made me really home sick [sic] for Vietnam. Almost looking forward for when my visa in Mexico runs out and I have to leave...

DanielBMarkham 11y ago

I have a passion for history. I love reading biographies and hanging out on history forums. As we're getting to the 50-year mark past the American involvement in Vietnam, things are progressing in ways not anticipated at the time. Vietnam, like several other Asian countries, is embracing capitalism and entrepreneurs. Old enemies hug and pose for photographs. This seems to be a pattern, at least among American conflicts (I have not studied others very much). As the combatants grow into old age, it's not worth carrying a grudge around. Things that were worth dying and killing for 50 years ago are still important, but they're fights for young people. It becomes easier to see things from the other side. I'd argue that by simply having a huge presence of Americans in Vietnam for so many years, the two countries have become joined for the next century or so, much the same as having kids in a marriage joins the two partners together even if they can't stand one another. I also note that things may end up turning out better for Vietnam in terms of economic development than if South Vietnam had won the war -- which would have only institutionalized worse corruption than they currently have. This is all speculative, of course, but I seriously doubt anybody in the mid-70s would have guessed that this is where we'd all be 40 years later. It's been an interesting journey for both countries.

sillygeese 11y ago
> Things that were worth dying and killing for 50 years ago are still important, but they're fights for young people. So what was behind the Vietnam War that was worth dying and killing for? What would you have died and killed for, when young?
- vasilipupkin 11y ago
  At the time, there was an existential struggle going on between Soviet Union and Europe/US. Vietnam war was ultimately the wrong turn in that struggle, but it was far less obviously wrong at the time.
  - logfromblammo 11y ago
    The so-called "domino theory" hypothesized that Communism could be modeled as a sort of ideological contagion. If one country became Communist, its neighbors were more likely to become Communist. So if left unchecked, Communism would spread throughout the world in a giant, red wave, leaving America as the last remaining bastion of freedom in the whole universe. This theory was given additional credence because apparently, the Communists believed in it, too. Well, it turns out that theory was just so much hot air.
    - vasilipupkin 11y ago
      yes. But it wasn't obvious at the time. Part of the reason it turned out to be hot air, because communists failed to execute on this strategy, at least in part because they had to fight against non communists. It was a dynamic system, not a static one
    - mafribe 11y ago
      In what sense was it hot air? Saloth Sar (better known as Pol Pot), radicalised by the French communist party, trained in Moscow, Belgrade and Beijing, took over neighbouring Cambodia, aided by the communists in Hanoi. Indeed the Cambodian Communist party was an offshoot of Viet Nam's People's Army (the armed forces of the Socialist Republic of Viet Nam). The domino theory was a good one, because, as you point out yourself, it described the explicit modus operandi of the communists. Where it failed, it failed primarily because the communists received serious pushback.

exhilaration 11y ago

No mention of Cuba in the article but I think we can all agree that increased engagement could very well lead to the same results - increased freedom and wealth for all Cubans. Interesting note on that topic: only 20 years after Bill Clinton normalized relations with Vietnam it's now "one of the most pro-American countries in Southeast Asia, with 78% of Vietnamese people viewing the U.S. favorably in 2015" according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States–Vietnam_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States–Vietnam_relation...

cms07 11y ago
How great was life for the average Cuban in pre-revolution days? I think if I were a Cuban I would be more than skeptical of undoing all of the positive things that have been accomplished since 1959.
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  Getting your fingernails torn out by the secret police for criticizing the Castro regime isn't too great. http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/07/02/cuba-arbitrarily-detained-almost-1-000-dissidents-in-june-tortured-political-prisoners/ http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/07/02/cuba-a... Economically, $6,000 GDP per capita isn't much to be proud of, compared to the US aligned Puerto Rico which is at $27,000. https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_cd&idim=country:PRI:CRI:CUB&hl=en&dl=en https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&...
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    Puerto Rico isn't "US aligned", it's part of the US. There's a pretty big difference.
    - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
      Capitalistic economies in the region do much better, so who do you want me to compare to who is "fair?" Brazil, Argentia, Chile? https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_cd&idim=country:ARG:BRA:CHL&hl=en&dl=en https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&... Still 2x Cuba and with usually less fingernail pulling. Communism is a worldwide failure both political, human rights-wise, and economically. Lets stop being "edgy" and defend it for easily garnered anti-US upvotes.

lucasjans 11y ago

Hello Saigon! I'm curious what other tech entrepreneurs/nomads we have out here. I've met many interesting, passionate technology people here, some expats and some locals. It's great to see the diversity in the scene here, just like you would expect from a major US city. There's a lot of raw talent here, thanks to the outsourcing industry, university system, professional schools and huge number of young people looking to exceed their parents' standards. If you're in Saigon - what are you doing here? I have a US company and am building the product with a relatively small team. Web focused, microservices/React stack.

jspaulding 11y ago
Hey Lucas, I'd love to connect. I'm currently in Saigon bootstrapping http://thinklab.com http://thinklab.com Regarding talent -- what do you think about the technical talent here? I find myself still working with guys from Eastern Europe. Would be awesome to find some talent locally though.
- nxh 11y ago
  You can check out this FB group https://www.facebook.com/groups/launchpad/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/launchpad/. It's the most well known discussion group for startups in Viet Nam. Around 70% of the posts include English translation.
contingencies 11y ago
Hi neighbours. I'm up the Red River from Hanoi in Yunnan, the far southwest corner of China. Often spend time in Vietnam, since 2000... lots of changes. Durian juice is the best! I have a friend and ex-colleague of 10 years who runs one of the big print publishing outfits in Saigon, let me know if you need an intro for ads.
jamra 11y ago
I'm building a team in Saigon right now. I've been traveling back and forth from Los Angeles. The talent can fluctuate, but if you know how to read resumes, you can find real gems. Those who graduated from public schools are quite good. The wealthy go to private. The work ethic is very solid.

peterjancelis 11y ago

Totally agree. Never felt so free to go about my life and business as in Saigon. Watch out with physical businesses however, foreigners can get scammed out of their stake.

jamra 11y ago
Do you have any personal experience you can share with foreigners getting scammed?
- peterjancelis 11y ago
  There was a French accountant in his late 20s who came here with 50K EUR of life savings and opened a French restaurant with a local partner. Worked 7 days a week for 6 months, restaurant was losing money, one day he gets kicked out by his partner with the help from some of his gym friends. That guy is now back in France in a job. He somehow managed to find a girlfriend while starting his restaurant though. He's now engaged to the girl but she's still here.
- refurb 11y ago
  I had a chance to talk to a Vietnamese-American (born in Vietnam) who has done a lot of business in Vietnam. I ask him about the opportunities for foreigners. His response was "the gov't is more than happy to let a few foreigners make out well to keep the investments coming, but if they want to, they can take everything you have and you'll have no recourse". Just an anecdote, but he has more experience in Vietnam than I do.