5 ms·

Haven't had to cross the border much, aye?

by noarchy 17y ago

mattmaroon 17y ago
I've crossed the Canadian border maybe 50 times with never a problem (and often a couple boxes of Cuban cigars in my wheel well).
- grandalf 17y ago
  So have I incidentally, but that didn't stop the Canadian guards from mistreating me on one unfortunate occasion. There are a variety of issues here, but I think the core issue is that people should be very concerned when law-abiding, harmless citizens are exposed to unnecessary coercion based on the whims of border clerks.
  - mattmaroon 17y ago
    I'm curious, what happened? I was once caught with Cubans. They broke them and sent me on my way.
    - grandalf 17y ago
      I was in college (U of M) and going to windsor with a friend the night before spring break to visit the casino (a bit of a novelty at the time and more fun than Ann Arbor when most of the campus was vacant). He had loaded his car (he had his video game system and guitar in the back, ready to drive home to Ohio the next day)... Just as we were pulling up to the checkpoint, I got a call from someone I hadn't heard from in a long time. In about 5-10 seconds I said, "Great to hear from you let me call you back in a few minutes". That overlapped by about 3 seconds with the guard's question "What's your citizenship". I said "US Citizen". The guard said, "Why are you on teh phone when I'm talking to you?" I said, "I'm sorry about being on the phone, I just got a call from someone I hadn't heard from in a long time and wanted to answer and say I'd call back". The guard reached over and stuck something under the wiper and directed us to drive into the search bay. Then, two surly men in uniform walked up and started hyper-aggressively asking questions. I explained that I thought I'd offended the previous guard b/c I'd been on the phone, and that we were just going for a routine visit to the casino. The guards then ordered us to get out of the car and began searching the car. They found my friend's video game system and guitar and acted as if this was highly suspicious. We explained that it was the night before spring break and that he had those things ready to bring home with him the next day and that they would be coming back to the US with us later. The guards proceeded to ask a lot more questions with voices raised, etc. Then they informed us that were were going to have to go back to the US. I said, "That's bullshit" in a firm voice. One of the guards came quickly toward me, so I jumped back into the car and locked the door. He roiled for a few seconds and then said, "I'm not going to hit you". I then waited for a moment until he backed away and got back out of the car and said, "Ok, you are making a mistake, we are harmless" etc. We then returned to the US and looped back around to re-attempt crossing, but the license plate had been flagged and we were ordered to leave again without being searched. The next day I called the Canadian border control office and explained to the supervisor what had happened. He said something along the lines of "How do I know you're telling the truth?" and hung up. He obviously didn't care. The next time I went to Canada I asked a few people who worked in tourism related shops just inside the Canadian border if my experience was typical. They told me that the job of border guard appeals to the sort of people who enjoy getting into fights, etc. and that they take the job to "blow off steam". If the supervisor had expressed the slightest concern, etc., I'd attribute it to a random bit of bad luck or misunderstanding, but I think the reality is that excesses/abuses happen all the time. I was ultimately only verbally abused, harassed, and turned away... fortunately the guard who came at me was prevented from acting on his impulse to get physical by my retreat into the car.
      - DanielBMarkham 17y ago
        Thanks for telling that story. I thought it was very informative and please don't think my following comments are demeaning it in any way. I'm simply trying to add a little context. I think it's safe to assume that border guards are not going to be educated and treat you with the same courtesy as the concierge at the local Hilton. This is a dull, monotonous, and repetitive job that only gets interesting if international felons or terrorists show up. Add to this the natural inclination of guards to begin to mistreat/abuse people in their care. Plus these fellows are armed and have the full force of the law on their side. There was a great link put up on another branch. I would encourage everyone to take a look at some of this information: http://www.flexyourrights.org/ http://www.flexyourrights.org/ The site's main message? You have to know exactly where the lines are and how to play the game when you're dealing with people in authority. Even then, you can expect to be mistreated on occasion. No, they do not care about you. You are just a number. They play this game all day long and know all the rules. You can either understand how it works or be very surprised at times. And just so I'm really clear on this: I do not like this and am pretty ticked that it's this way. But that doesn't make reality change, and we have to live in reality whether we like it or not.
        grandalf 17y ago
        Thanks for the link. Definitely no offense taken at your comments... I forgot to mention that the guard at one point said, "You have no rights here", which I found oddly unnerving. I realized at the time that I had no idea what rights (if any) I had on Canadian soil at the Canadian entrance checkpoint. I agree with you about the best strategy, and that the guards are not likely to be cordial, etc. The experience taught me (for the first time) what it feels like to be someone who isn't automatically given the benefit of the doubt by law enforcement officers, and nudged me firmly in the direction of libertarianism (small L). I think the most worrisome aspect is when the law empowers guards, police, etc., to use too many whims. There was also no method for oversight... in retrospect I should have asked them to send a supervisor over, but in the stress of the moment I didn't think to ask for one (though my subsequent phone call suggests that the supervisor wouldn't have been sympathetic)...

Haven't had to cross the border much, aye?

by noarchy 17y ago

Haven't had to cross the border much, aye?

I've crossed the Canadian border maybe 50 times with never a problem (and often a couple boxes of Cuban cigars in my wheel well).

grandalf 17y ago
So have I incidentally, but that didn't stop the Canadian guards from mistreating me on one unfortunate occasion. There are a variety of issues here, but I think the core issue is that people should be very concerned when law-abiding, harmless citizens are exposed to unnecessary coercion based on the whims of border clerks.
- mattmaroon 17y ago
  I'm curious, what happened? I was once caught with Cubans. They broke them and sent me on my way.
  - grandalf 17y ago
    I was in college (U of M) and going to windsor with a friend the night before spring break to visit the casino (a bit of a novelty at the time and more fun than Ann Arbor when most of the campus was vacant). He had loaded his car (he had his video game system and guitar in the back, ready to drive home to Ohio the next day)... Just as we were pulling up to the checkpoint, I got a call from someone I hadn't heard from in a long time. In about 5-10 seconds I said, "Great to hear from you let me call you back in a few minutes". That overlapped by about 3 seconds with the guard's question "What's your citizenship". I said "US Citizen". The guard said, "Why are you on teh phone when I'm talking to you?" I said, "I'm sorry about being on the phone, I just got a call from someone I hadn't heard from in a long time and wanted to answer and say I'd call back". The guard reached over and stuck something under the wiper and directed us to drive into the search bay. Then, two surly men in uniform walked up and started hyper-aggressively asking questions. I explained that I thought I'd offended the previous guard b/c I'd been on the phone, and that we were just going for a routine visit to the casino. The guards then ordered us to get out of the car and began searching the car. They found my friend's video game system and guitar and acted as if this was highly suspicious. We explained that it was the night before spring break and that he had those things ready to bring home with him the next day and that they would be coming back to the US with us later. The guards proceeded to ask a lot more questions with voices raised, etc. Then they informed us that were were going to have to go back to the US. I said, "That's bullshit" in a firm voice. One of the guards came quickly toward me, so I jumped back into the car and locked the door. He roiled for a few seconds and then said, "I'm not going to hit you". I then waited for a moment until he backed away and got back out of the car and said, "Ok, you are making a mistake, we are harmless" etc. We then returned to the US and looped back around to re-attempt crossing, but the license plate had been flagged and we were ordered to leave again without being searched. The next day I called the Canadian border control office and explained to the supervisor what had happened. He said something along the lines of "How do I know you're telling the truth?" and hung up. He obviously didn't care. The next time I went to Canada I asked a few people who worked in tourism related shops just inside the Canadian border if my experience was typical. They told me that the job of border guard appeals to the sort of people who enjoy getting into fights, etc. and that they take the job to "blow off steam". If the supervisor had expressed the slightest concern, etc., I'd attribute it to a random bit of bad luck or misunderstanding, but I think the reality is that excesses/abuses happen all the time. I was ultimately only verbally abused, harassed, and turned away... fortunately the guard who came at me was prevented from acting on his impulse to get physical by my retreat into the car.
    - DanielBMarkham 17y ago
      Thanks for telling that story. I thought it was very informative and please don't think my following comments are demeaning it in any way. I'm simply trying to add a little context. I think it's safe to assume that border guards are not going to be educated and treat you with the same courtesy as the concierge at the local Hilton. This is a dull, monotonous, and repetitive job that only gets interesting if international felons or terrorists show up. Add to this the natural inclination of guards to begin to mistreat/abuse people in their care. Plus these fellows are armed and have the full force of the law on their side. There was a great link put up on another branch. I would encourage everyone to take a look at some of this information: http://www.flexyourrights.org/ http://www.flexyourrights.org/ The site's main message? You have to know exactly where the lines are and how to play the game when you're dealing with people in authority. Even then, you can expect to be mistreated on occasion. No, they do not care about you. You are just a number. They play this game all day long and know all the rules. You can either understand how it works or be very surprised at times. And just so I'm really clear on this: I do not like this and am pretty ticked that it's this way. But that doesn't make reality change, and we have to live in reality whether we like it or not.
      - grandalf 17y ago
        Thanks for the link. Definitely no offense taken at your comments... I forgot to mention that the guard at one point said, "You have no rights here", which I found oddly unnerving. I realized at the time that I had no idea what rights (if any) I had on Canadian soil at the Canadian entrance checkpoint. I agree with you about the best strategy, and that the guards are not likely to be cordial, etc. The experience taught me (for the first time) what it feels like to be someone who isn't automatically given the benefit of the doubt by law enforcement officers, and nudged me firmly in the direction of libertarianism (small L). I think the most worrisome aspect is when the law empowers guards, police, etc., to use too many whims. There was also no method for oversight... in retrospect I should have asked them to send a supervisor over, but in the stress of the moment I didn't think to ask for one (though my subsequent phone call suggests that the supervisor wouldn't have been sympathetic)...