4 ms·

Congratulations to Ukraine and Bosnia-Herzegovina for being the only countries to send gender-balanced teams of three boys and three girls.

ratsmack 11y ago
Are you implying that it would be good if the ones sent were based on a gender balance rather than being chosen on their math ability?
- lwhalen 11y ago
  It's far preferable to be politically correct than to win, don'tcha know. /s
- veridies 11y ago
  He might be suggesting that Ukraine and Bosnia-Herzegovina are to be lauded for having an educational system that doesn't end up leaving half of the population behind.
  - throwit542 11y ago
    You're talking about the U.S. educational system leaving men behind, right? Because in America, women are more likely to graduate high school [0], enroll in college [1], graduate from college [2], and even make up 3/5's of graduate students [2]. [0] http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779196.html http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779196.html [1] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/03/06/womens-college-enrollment-gains-leave-men-behind/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/03/06/womens-colle... [2] http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2011/gender-gap-in-education.aspx http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2011/gender-gap-in-...
- calibraxis 11y ago
  Intentionally uncharitable interpretation. More likely that the other teams (and the systems backing them) privileged guys, instead of educating and choosing on math ability.
  - hamstergene 11y ago
    What makes you think that is more likely? In 2013, it was Finland and Costa Rica whose teams were "gender balanced", not Ukraine and Bosnia&Herzegovina. In 2012, Bolivia. In 2009, Kuwait. Previous years stats don't suggest their education systems are anyhow different, it's just how this year's random has laid out.
- VeejayRampay 11y ago
  It might be. What if there's a psychological barrier in place in a given society where a given group of people are repeatedly told either directly or implicitly through societal conventions inherited from previous centuries that they don't have the gift for science or maths in particular. In such a context, it would actually be beneficial to send "balanced teams" to such competitions so that it gives a mental boost (in the form of a symbol/token/role model that acts as a vessel) to perfectly capable people that just started with the handicap of being say "a woman", "a black" or "a redneck". As such, reasoning in terms of "ability" is fundamentally flawed because "skills" are never innate, they're the result of a lot of work and positive circumstances in a given field and starting with a handicap from the get go just makes it so much harder that it's absolutely not a level ground.
  - Moshe_Silnorin 11y ago
    Scott Alexander writes well about this topic: http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/24/perceptions-of-required-ability-act-as-a-proxy-for-actual-required-ability-in-explaining-the-gender-gap/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/24/perceptions-of-required...
  - gech 11y ago
    What if they do worse than the man on the whole in some or many instances? What happens to the image you were trying to create then?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- RA_Fisher 11y ago
  It could be that the concept of math ability itself is currently defined to preference a gender. Or, taught in a way to preference gender. Or a gender is ridiculed systematically during the learning process. It's not so simple.
Moshe_Silnorin 11y ago
I assume most countries picked the best candidates for their teams, as mathematical aptitude is relatively easy to quantify. If it wasn't the competition would have no meaning. Congratulating Ukraine and Bosnia for this like it's some heroic sacrifice is odd. These girls were the best choice for their teams so they were picked. I don't see much more to it than that.
- bnegreve 11y ago
  > I assume most countries picked the best candidates for their teams The fact that there are statistically significantly more men among the best candidates is already enough to conclude that there was a gender bias. The bias can be in the education or in the selection process, etc. The fact that Ukraine and Bosnia-Herzegovina have gender balanced teams mean that they have managed to avoid this bias, one way or another but not necessarily though positive discrimination, maybe they simply a more balanced education, maybe they have a more extensive selection process where they retrain the students from scratch before selection etc. Eitheir way, they deserve some credit for that.
- afarrell 11y ago
  I would congratulate Ukraine and Boznia-Hertzegovina for creating the educational system in which talented girls flourished at the same level as talented boys and so which it came time to pick the the competitors, it was statistically likely that they'd end up with a gender-balanced team.
Thriptic 11y ago
I can't think of a worse message to send to potential female competitors than "you're only on this team because we needed some women for appearances".

ratsmack 11y ago

Are you implying that it would be good if the ones sent were based on a gender balance rather than being chosen on their math ability?

lwhalen 11y ago
It's far preferable to be politically correct than to win, don'tcha know. /s
veridies 11y ago
He might be suggesting that Ukraine and Bosnia-Herzegovina are to be lauded for having an educational system that doesn't end up leaving half of the population behind.
- throwit542 11y ago
  You're talking about the U.S. educational system leaving men behind, right? Because in America, women are more likely to graduate high school [0], enroll in college [1], graduate from college [2], and even make up 3/5's of graduate students [2]. [0] http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779196.html http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779196.html [1] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/03/06/womens-college-enrollment-gains-leave-men-behind/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/03/06/womens-colle... [2] http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2011/gender-gap-in-education.aspx http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2011/gender-gap-in-...
calibraxis 11y ago
Intentionally uncharitable interpretation. More likely that the other teams (and the systems backing them) privileged guys, instead of educating and choosing on math ability.
- hamstergene 11y ago
  What makes you think that is more likely? In 2013, it was Finland and Costa Rica whose teams were "gender balanced", not Ukraine and Bosnia&Herzegovina. In 2012, Bolivia. In 2009, Kuwait. Previous years stats don't suggest their education systems are anyhow different, it's just how this year's random has laid out.
VeejayRampay 11y ago
It might be. What if there's a psychological barrier in place in a given society where a given group of people are repeatedly told either directly or implicitly through societal conventions inherited from previous centuries that they don't have the gift for science or maths in particular. In such a context, it would actually be beneficial to send "balanced teams" to such competitions so that it gives a mental boost (in the form of a symbol/token/role model that acts as a vessel) to perfectly capable people that just started with the handicap of being say "a woman", "a black" or "a redneck". As such, reasoning in terms of "ability" is fundamentally flawed because "skills" are never innate, they're the result of a lot of work and positive circumstances in a given field and starting with a handicap from the get go just makes it so much harder that it's absolutely not a level ground.
- Moshe_Silnorin 11y ago
  Scott Alexander writes well about this topic: http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/24/perceptions-of-required-ability-act-as-a-proxy-for-actual-required-ability-in-explaining-the-gender-gap/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/24/perceptions-of-required...
- gech 11y ago
  What if they do worse than the man on the whole in some or many instances? What happens to the image you were trying to create then?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
RA_Fisher 11y ago
It could be that the concept of math ability itself is currently defined to preference a gender. Or, taught in a way to preference gender. Or a gender is ridiculed systematically during the learning process. It's not so simple.

Moshe_Silnorin 11y ago

I assume most countries picked the best candidates for their teams, as mathematical aptitude is relatively easy to quantify. If it wasn't the competition would have no meaning. Congratulating Ukraine and Bosnia for this like it's some heroic sacrifice is odd. These girls were the best choice for their teams so they were picked. I don't see much more to it than that.

bnegreve 11y ago
> I assume most countries picked the best candidates for their teams The fact that there are statistically significantly more men among the best candidates is already enough to conclude that there was a gender bias. The bias can be in the education or in the selection process, etc. The fact that Ukraine and Bosnia-Herzegovina have gender balanced teams mean that they have managed to avoid this bias, one way or another but not necessarily though positive discrimination, maybe they simply a more balanced education, maybe they have a more extensive selection process where they retrain the students from scratch before selection etc. Eitheir way, they deserve some credit for that.
afarrell 11y ago
I would congratulate Ukraine and Boznia-Hertzegovina for creating the educational system in which talented girls flourished at the same level as talented boys and so which it came time to pick the the competitors, it was statistically likely that they'd end up with a gender-balanced team.

Thriptic 11y ago

I can't think of a worse message to send to potential female competitors than "you're only on this team because we needed some women for appearances".