3 ms·

Why "no thanks"?

by omouse 17y ago

Why "no thanks"?

run4yourlives 17y ago
Because, as a relatively high achiever, A union will only serve to bring me down/prevent my advancment. I see no reason why I would want to encourage that.
- omouse 17y ago
  Not all unions are like that. In the IT world, a union could only be used for collective agreements so that the contracts don't include unacceptable clauses. Some people are afraid to say something about a contract because they're afraid they won't be hired or they're afraid they'll get fired if they're an employee. Start a union that doesn't bring down or limit someone's advancement.
  - run4yourlives 17y ago
    >Some people are afraid to say something about a contract because they're afraid they won't be hired or they're afraid they'll get fired if they're an employee. This is not a problem I have. Is there way a union will specifically benefit me?
  - anamax 17y ago
    > Not all unions are like that. How about 3 examples that are more than 30 years old. (Unions tend to last as long as the host, which is a problem for the UAW.)
    - omouse 17y ago
      I can't because I don't know enough about all the diff types of unions. In any case, that's irrelevant. What you're suggesting is that having an ideal and working towards it is a waste of time.
      - anamax 17y ago
        > I can't because I don't know enough about all the diff types of unions. In other words, you don't know enough to support your position. There's nothing particularly wrong with that, but .... > In any case, that's irrelevant. What you're suggesting is that having an ideal and working towards it is a waste of time. It's quite relevant. Unions have been tried many times and the end result has always had certain characteristics. If you're going to argue that this time will be different, you have to explain why and what you're going to do different. And that's where background knowledge is required. No, it's not enough to "believe" - Tinkerbelle logic doesn't work in the real world.
  - tomjen2 17y ago
    >In the IT world, a union could only be used for collective agreements so that the contracts don't include unacceptable clauses. Unacceptable to whom?
  - ja30278 17y ago
    Can you name 3 profitable, growing, unionized industries? Not to mention the paternalistic relationship it implies. If I don't care for the terms of an employment contract, I won't work under it. If no business in my industry offers terms I consider favorable, I can start my own business. If that's impractical, or I'm unwilling to do it, I should change professions entirely.
    - omouse 17y ago
      Here's a list of companies: http://levellers.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/no-profitable-unionized-companies/ http://levellers.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/no-profitable-unio... Profitablility of a company is mainly tied to decisions made by management. A unionized company could be very well or badly run, depending on the management. It's the management that hires the workers and decide what they should be doing after all. A union helps both the workers and the company because without the company, the workers (and the union) would no longer be needed. In the GM bailout, the UAW took some wage/benefits cuts so that GM wouldn't be completely down the shitter. Not to mention the paternalistic relationship it implies. If I don't care for the terms of an employment contract, I won't work under it. If no business in my industry offers terms I consider favorable, I can start my own business. If that's impractical, or I'm unwilling to do it, I should change professions entirely. Changing professions is sometimes impractical. What will you do and how will you live while you are training to join another profession? Starting a business is difficult, you can ask all the people here how much work they have to put into it. What if you don't have the skills to manage a business or to market a product? Not only that, but where do you get the capital from? VCs? Banks? You have to beg them and do a song and dance to get any money from them. Then you have to keep doing that while you remain unprofitable so that the business keeps on running. What if every employer offers contracts that are crappy in one way or another? What do you do then? Choose the lesser of a million evils? Why should you do that when you can bargain and possibly get a better contract? A union is as paternalistic as the state or the corporation. So if you have no problem with those, groups of people co-operating to achieve something, then you shouldn't have a problem with a union. Maybe the word has a negative connotation for you, we can change that easily. Let's call it XYZ or some other word instead.

Why "no thanks"?

by omouse 17y ago

Why "no thanks"?

Because, as a relatively high achiever, A union will only serve to bring me down/prevent my advancment. I see no reason why I would want to encourage that.

omouse 17y ago
Not all unions are like that. In the IT world, a union could only be used for collective agreements so that the contracts don't include unacceptable clauses. Some people are afraid to say something about a contract because they're afraid they won't be hired or they're afraid they'll get fired if they're an employee. Start a union that doesn't bring down or limit someone's advancement.
- run4yourlives 17y ago
  >Some people are afraid to say something about a contract because they're afraid they won't be hired or they're afraid they'll get fired if they're an employee. This is not a problem I have. Is there way a union will specifically benefit me?
- anamax 17y ago
  > Not all unions are like that. How about 3 examples that are more than 30 years old. (Unions tend to last as long as the host, which is a problem for the UAW.)
  - omouse 17y ago
    I can't because I don't know enough about all the diff types of unions. In any case, that's irrelevant. What you're suggesting is that having an ideal and working towards it is a waste of time.
    - anamax 17y ago
      > I can't because I don't know enough about all the diff types of unions. In other words, you don't know enough to support your position. There's nothing particularly wrong with that, but .... > In any case, that's irrelevant. What you're suggesting is that having an ideal and working towards it is a waste of time. It's quite relevant. Unions have been tried many times and the end result has always had certain characteristics. If you're going to argue that this time will be different, you have to explain why and what you're going to do different. And that's where background knowledge is required. No, it's not enough to "believe" - Tinkerbelle logic doesn't work in the real world.
- tomjen2 17y ago
  >In the IT world, a union could only be used for collective agreements so that the contracts don't include unacceptable clauses. Unacceptable to whom?
- ja30278 17y ago
  Can you name 3 profitable, growing, unionized industries? Not to mention the paternalistic relationship it implies. If I don't care for the terms of an employment contract, I won't work under it. If no business in my industry offers terms I consider favorable, I can start my own business. If that's impractical, or I'm unwilling to do it, I should change professions entirely.
  - omouse 17y ago
    Here's a list of companies: http://levellers.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/no-profitable-unionized-companies/ http://levellers.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/no-profitable-unio... Profitablility of a company is mainly tied to decisions made by management. A unionized company could be very well or badly run, depending on the management. It's the management that hires the workers and decide what they should be doing after all. A union helps both the workers and the company because without the company, the workers (and the union) would no longer be needed. In the GM bailout, the UAW took some wage/benefits cuts so that GM wouldn't be completely down the shitter. Not to mention the paternalistic relationship it implies. If I don't care for the terms of an employment contract, I won't work under it. If no business in my industry offers terms I consider favorable, I can start my own business. If that's impractical, or I'm unwilling to do it, I should change professions entirely. Changing professions is sometimes impractical. What will you do and how will you live while you are training to join another profession? Starting a business is difficult, you can ask all the people here how much work they have to put into it. What if you don't have the skills to manage a business or to market a product? Not only that, but where do you get the capital from? VCs? Banks? You have to beg them and do a song and dance to get any money from them. Then you have to keep doing that while you remain unprofitable so that the business keeps on running. What if every employer offers contracts that are crappy in one way or another? What do you do then? Choose the lesser of a million evils? Why should you do that when you can bargain and possibly get a better contract? A union is as paternalistic as the state or the corporation. So if you have no problem with those, groups of people co-operating to achieve something, then you shouldn't have a problem with a union. Maybe the word has a negative connotation for you, we can change that easily. Let's call it XYZ or some other word instead.