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Even if not a software update, I still find Tesla's way of thinking of a car as an actual (continuously update/upgrade-able) product fascinating. Very rare for

Even if not a software update, I still find Tesla's way of thinking of a car as an actual (continuously update/upgrade-able) product fascinating. Very rare for hardware. It gives an amazing user experience, "Hey restart your car and it's now got X and Y". Respect. Edit: clarifying the term "product".

skrebbel 11y ago
What? I think I know what you mean, but how the hell are BMW not thinking of their cars as "actual products"?
- mmastrac 11y ago
  I think he means "product" as in the "dynamic product" we have today with TVs/laptops/iOS/Android etc.
- tricolon 11y ago
  What your parent might be talking about is the distinction between a product that is continually supported by the creator (such as a hardware device with software that can be updated) and an artefact that is produced and then effectively forgotten about by the creator (though there might exist a first- or third-party market for repair and maintenance). I have a feeling that many auto manufacturers still think more in terms of artefacts than in terms of products (like many corporations used to treat software).
  - skrebbel 11y ago
    My point is that the vast, vast, vast amount of products out there don't have auto-update. This includes my morning cereal, my fancy designer dustbin, my bicycle, my microwave, and my 2-year old son's favourite teddybeardogthing. To only call something a product when it has auto-update is such ridiculous HN navel gazing that it's just funny. EDIT: removed useless rant for fear of losing even more internet points!
    - tricolon 11y ago
      I agree it's funny. There's probably a better term for it.
    - stefanobernardi 11y ago
      Agreed on the terms. It's just that I don't have a better terms, given that we work with digital constantly upgradable web apps and native apps and we still call them "products".
    - taejo 11y ago
      Your morning cereal isn't auto-updated in the box, obviously, but the recipe is presumably tweaked quasi-continuously without calling it Corn Flakes 2.1 or something like that.
      - Udik 11y ago
        Not tweaked in the sense of improved, though. I guess that mostly it's changing the proportions and varieties of the contents depending on the price of the different ingredients and their availability. I was kind of shocked when I first learned (in a jam factory) that they do it all the time, while you're in the illusion of buying the same product, because, well, it displays the same label and brand.
- austenallred 11y ago
  In other words, Tesla is thinking about their cars as hardware + software, whereas BMW thinks about their cars as hardware only.
  - trhway 11y ago
    >Tesla is thinking about their cars as hardware + software the electric cars are pretty much gadgets (especially the way Tesla did their car - everything what is possible is implemented in software vs. hardware) where is typical ICE car is mostly hardware. This is why Apple is getting into electric car business - because Apple has great skills doing gadgets while it is obvious (at least to me) that oily ICE car is alien to Apple. I.e. while electric and ICE car both share "car" term and both do the same function for end-user and have the same 4 wheels/tires/brakes/etc..., they are actually 2 different things. You just add to your iTunes new gadget - iCar - and it gets synched with your other iPhones/iPods/etc... . Google's self-driving "cutie" of course will get connected to Google Cloud/Play/etc... . No Ford or GMC can do that and thus they would be relegated to the roles of Samsung - chip solders.
- stefanobernardi 11y ago
  All of the responses got what I meant, which I realize is not clear. I mean a non-disposable, dynamic and upgradable hardware product. This is the first time that I see this in the hardware world, where every object is manufactured and then all plans are towards a V2 or a new product. The few exceptions are for recalls, but that's obviously a different story.
  - skrebbel 11y ago
    Good point. It's pretty sad that even Android phones have a worse track record than a car with this stuff.
  - WillPostForFood 11y ago
    Is it really that different from the performance parts divisions of the major auto makers? Like Toyota uses TRD to build and sell aftermarket parts that you can get installed at the Toyota dealer. Mercedes does it with AMG, Ford with Ford Performance, etc...
    - mynameisvlad 11y ago
      It is 100% different. This isn't aftermarket performance parts (which is an incredibly narrow field of upgrades), this is updates and new features actively being provided to everyone who has purchased the vehicle. Hell, most cars require you to go into a dealer for a software update in the first place, don't even think about going in to get a new feature like cruise control installed unless you got it as a shoddy aftermarket replacement (OEM parts are generally hard to find aftermarket). AMG also doesn't make parts anymore, they make tuned versions of existing cars, as new products.
      - oaktowner 11y ago
        Absolutely agreed. This car gets better after you have bought it. For free! They are continually adding features that just "magically" appear. Kind of amazing.
tthayer 11y ago
Agreed. The 2015 Mazda3 we just bought has a horrible info/nav system that crashes and frequently stops responding. I'm guessing the actual chance of it ever being fixed at 0%. Tesla's get an automatic OTA update that would fix that kind of thing and it wouldn't be something you'd have to 'deal' with for the rest of your ownership of the vehicle.
- mackey 11y ago
  I have been researching mazdas (CX-5) lately and they do get updates to the info/nav system. I think I read there is a crashing problem in v.51 or something, but its fixed in v.55. Not the same as tesla, but better than others.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    Are those updates over the air, or do you need to take it to a dealer to apply them?
    - briHass 11y ago
      They're done over USB. The system will look for specially named firmware files (*.up) and auto-apply. This forum: http://mazda3revolution.com/forums/2014-mazda-3-skyactiv-audio-electronics/ http://mazda3revolution.com/forums/2014-mazda-3-skyactiv-aud... has some excellent info, and someone usually posts the new FW files. I've done an upgrade and the hacks myself.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        Nice. Not quite as convenient as Tesla, but it's great that they give you the ability to do it yourself.
    - tthayer 11y ago
      It looks like OTA updates will be available in the future, but who knows if 'older' models will get that feature.
- 11y ago
e40 11y ago
What is doubly amazing about this: they must really be confident of their testing procedures and software practices, because the liability of pushing a bad software update and causing injury to a driver... confidence, for sure. I'm certain this is the reason Toyota and others don't ever update the software in your car, after you purchase it, unless it's a recall firmware fix.
- zdrummond 11y ago
  Except, when I was driving my Tesla Model S down a long stretch of highway, the entire instrument cluster froze. I had to pull off and turn it off and on again; I kid you not. Move fast break things! Hmmmm.
  - amluto 11y ago
    In a Tesla, "my car crashed" has a whole new meaning. Hold down the top steering wheel button on each side for several seconds, then release. That'll reboot the instrument cluster. Hold down both scroll wheels for several seconds and release -- that will reboot the center console. Perfectly safe while driving, and everything still works. Everything that Tesla considers essential, of course. You can't tell how fast you're going while the instrument cluster is rebooting, and you can't hear the turn signal while the center console is rebooting. You also can't lock the doors while the center console is rebooting, but apparently no one at Tesla ever lived or stopped the car in a dangerous neighborhood.
    - Cthulhu_ 11y ago
      > but apparently no one at Tesla ever lived or stopped the car in a dangerous neighborhood. * while holding down both scroll wheels for several seconds to reboot the center console for whatever reason.
nicboobees 11y ago
This is an awful user experience though. Look at mobile phones. An old Nokia 3210 or something, just works. It does everything fine. It works as a phone. It was designed from start to finish, and built. Compare that with Android. Every update they seem to break or remove some functionality. Endless software updates, restarting, etc. It was shipped with bugs, it'll always have bugs. I'm not convinced this is an improvement. Also obviously has some pretty big consequences if the update system is hacked, or if there's critical bugs etc.
- jrwoodruff 11y ago
  If it's done poorly, of course it's a terrible experience. Restarting my car and it's suddenly faster and smarter? Sounds like a positive experience to me.
  - nicboobees 11y ago
    What if they decide to remove a feature like Android removed "silent mode" as a feature... Also, software will always be more buggy than hardware. The more software there is in something, the less reliable it is.
- rdtsc 11y ago
  Aslo battery life. I used to charge my phone once a week, tops. I could drop it, throw, it fit in my hand my pocket find. Now I have to charge it every day. My android is more of a portable computer that also knows how to make calls via the cell phone network.
  - oaktowner 11y ago
    If you turn off data and don't use the screen, you'll get much better battery life (and have approximately the same feature set as your old phone). Old phones didn't have apps that required constant connectivity and didn't have screens at all, essentially. So the problem is that this is comparing yesterday's phone with today's pocket-sized computer. Note: you can still buy a feature phone today if you'd like.
rs999gti 11y ago
"It gives an amazing user experience, "Hey restart your car and it's now got X and Y". Respect." It's basically Apple's model with iPhone and Macs, except applied to automobiles.
- monokrome 11y ago
  Not sure that this is necessarily Apple-specific
  - superuser2 11y ago
    In practice, carriers and manufacturers do not tend to release updates for Android phones other than Nexus once the shinier model has come out a few months later. One of the major selling points of the iPhone is that it will continue to receive full OS updates for 2+ years. Continuing software upgrades are pretty Apple-specific in the smartphone market, but it's also just as true of Windows and Linux in the desktop space.
- noja 11y ago
  How is a software update "Apple's model"?
romaniv 11y ago
At the same time, this means you do not really control your own car anymore. It's like a service.
- lberger 11y ago
  For those that lease their car, this seems like a positive thing.
- goldfeld 11y ago
  Owning your own car will go the way of owning your own boat or horse. Expensive and mostly for sport.
dm2 11y ago
It shows that they care about their product, their customers, and their brand. Any other car company would save software updates for the latest years model and tell users that they have to purchase a new vehicle to receive the updates. Great precedent Tesla, thank you, and I hope other car companies follow your lead.
rn222 11y ago
The entire automotive industry sees automobiles as upgradeable, it's called the "aftermarket". Conventional automobiles can be tuned and upgraded and have been for generations, except, us non Tesla owners can do it without the manufacturers say so. With Tesla you are forced to buy your upgrades from them, this is less flexible IMO.
- greglindahl 11y ago
  There are numerous aftermarket upgrades for Teslas.
  - rn222 11y ago
    Powertrain upgrades?
minkowskitensor 11y ago
This sort of thing isn't really that new in the automotive industry. The R35 GT-R has had the same basic powertrain, chassis, and body since 2008, but year over year Nissan continuously upgrades the power output by tuning the ECU and turbocharger boost controllers. You can change an ICE's characteristics quite drastically just with a quick ECU reflash; you can make the cam timing delayed/dulled for better fuel efficiency, or you can set the lifter solenoid (if the engine has one) to activate at insanely low engine speeds to get as much torque out of the engine as possible. The electric motor is a much simpler device compared to a classical Carnot heat engine. This, combined with Tesla's over-the-air root access to the deepest levels of the vehicle's systems, makes the actual process of tweaking and tuning the car feel much more seamless.
Shivetya 11y ago
Sorry, but honestly making it faster is about the opposite I want to see as an improvement. It is a near admission, we can't do jack about range so lets wave our dicks around at the stop light. I was so hoping the D would have stood for distance/double/ etc before speculation ruined that idea. Now it seems their only news is, look its faster which runs counter to the conservation idea of EVs
- ryguytilidie 11y ago
  This is such an insanely nitty complaint I can't even believe it. They are limited by batter technology and are doing the best they can. While conservation is certainly the idea of EVs, they need to have certain performance characteristics before they are widely accepted. PR stunts like this get people more interested in a great thing. But I suppose this is the internet so we just need to slam everything and insult everyone. :\
  - FireBeyond 11y ago
    The fuse to make this work is an extra $10K. What battery pack or technology could be purchased for that? "they need to have certain performance characteristics before they are widely accepted" EVs need to be able to do 0-60 in 2.8s to be widely accepted??
    - twblalock 11y ago
      > EVs need to be able to do 0-60 in 2.8s to be widely accepted?? ryguytilidie's comment, in context, included this explanation: "PR stunts like this get people more interested in a great thing." And yes, products which are new and different generally need good PR in order to be accepted by consumers. Quite a lot of the press is talking about this today, which is what Tesla hoped to achieve.

skrebbel 11y ago

What? I think I know what you mean, but how the hell are BMW not thinking of their cars as "actual products"?

mmastrac 11y ago
I think he means "product" as in the "dynamic product" we have today with TVs/laptops/iOS/Android etc.
tricolon 11y ago
What your parent might be talking about is the distinction between a product that is continually supported by the creator (such as a hardware device with software that can be updated) and an artefact that is produced and then effectively forgotten about by the creator (though there might exist a first- or third-party market for repair and maintenance). I have a feeling that many auto manufacturers still think more in terms of artefacts than in terms of products (like many corporations used to treat software).
- skrebbel 11y ago
  My point is that the vast, vast, vast amount of products out there don't have auto-update. This includes my morning cereal, my fancy designer dustbin, my bicycle, my microwave, and my 2-year old son's favourite teddybeardogthing. To only call something a product when it has auto-update is such ridiculous HN navel gazing that it's just funny. EDIT: removed useless rant for fear of losing even more internet points!
  - tricolon 11y ago
    I agree it's funny. There's probably a better term for it.
  - stefanobernardi 11y ago
    Agreed on the terms. It's just that I don't have a better terms, given that we work with digital constantly upgradable web apps and native apps and we still call them "products".
  - taejo 11y ago
    Your morning cereal isn't auto-updated in the box, obviously, but the recipe is presumably tweaked quasi-continuously without calling it Corn Flakes 2.1 or something like that.
    - Udik 11y ago
      Not tweaked in the sense of improved, though. I guess that mostly it's changing the proportions and varieties of the contents depending on the price of the different ingredients and their availability. I was kind of shocked when I first learned (in a jam factory) that they do it all the time, while you're in the illusion of buying the same product, because, well, it displays the same label and brand.
austenallred 11y ago
In other words, Tesla is thinking about their cars as hardware + software, whereas BMW thinks about their cars as hardware only.
- trhway 11y ago
  >Tesla is thinking about their cars as hardware + software the electric cars are pretty much gadgets (especially the way Tesla did their car - everything what is possible is implemented in software vs. hardware) where is typical ICE car is mostly hardware. This is why Apple is getting into electric car business - because Apple has great skills doing gadgets while it is obvious (at least to me) that oily ICE car is alien to Apple. I.e. while electric and ICE car both share "car" term and both do the same function for end-user and have the same 4 wheels/tires/brakes/etc..., they are actually 2 different things. You just add to your iTunes new gadget - iCar - and it gets synched with your other iPhones/iPods/etc... . Google's self-driving "cutie" of course will get connected to Google Cloud/Play/etc... . No Ford or GMC can do that and thus they would be relegated to the roles of Samsung - chip solders.
stefanobernardi 11y ago
All of the responses got what I meant, which I realize is not clear. I mean a non-disposable, dynamic and upgradable hardware product. This is the first time that I see this in the hardware world, where every object is manufactured and then all plans are towards a V2 or a new product. The few exceptions are for recalls, but that's obviously a different story.
- skrebbel 11y ago
  Good point. It's pretty sad that even Android phones have a worse track record than a car with this stuff.
- WillPostForFood 11y ago
  Is it really that different from the performance parts divisions of the major auto makers? Like Toyota uses TRD to build and sell aftermarket parts that you can get installed at the Toyota dealer. Mercedes does it with AMG, Ford with Ford Performance, etc...
  - mynameisvlad 11y ago
    It is 100% different. This isn't aftermarket performance parts (which is an incredibly narrow field of upgrades), this is updates and new features actively being provided to everyone who has purchased the vehicle. Hell, most cars require you to go into a dealer for a software update in the first place, don't even think about going in to get a new feature like cruise control installed unless you got it as a shoddy aftermarket replacement (OEM parts are generally hard to find aftermarket). AMG also doesn't make parts anymore, they make tuned versions of existing cars, as new products.
    - oaktowner 11y ago
      Absolutely agreed. This car gets better after you have bought it. For free! They are continually adding features that just "magically" appear. Kind of amazing.

tthayer 11y ago

Agreed. The 2015 Mazda3 we just bought has a horrible info/nav system that crashes and frequently stops responding. I'm guessing the actual chance of it ever being fixed at 0%. Tesla's get an automatic OTA update that would fix that kind of thing and it wouldn't be something you'd have to 'deal' with for the rest of your ownership of the vehicle.

mackey 11y ago
I have been researching mazdas (CX-5) lately and they do get updates to the info/nav system. I think I read there is a crashing problem in v.51 or something, but its fixed in v.55. Not the same as tesla, but better than others.
- mikeash 11y ago
  Are those updates over the air, or do you need to take it to a dealer to apply them?
  - briHass 11y ago
    They're done over USB. The system will look for specially named firmware files (*.up) and auto-apply. This forum: http://mazda3revolution.com/forums/2014-mazda-3-skyactiv-audio-electronics/ http://mazda3revolution.com/forums/2014-mazda-3-skyactiv-aud... has some excellent info, and someone usually posts the new FW files. I've done an upgrade and the hacks myself.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      Nice. Not quite as convenient as Tesla, but it's great that they give you the ability to do it yourself.
  - tthayer 11y ago
    It looks like OTA updates will be available in the future, but who knows if 'older' models will get that feature.
11y ago

e40 11y ago

What is doubly amazing about this: they must really be confident of their testing procedures and software practices, because the liability of pushing a bad software update and causing injury to a driver... confidence, for sure. I'm certain this is the reason Toyota and others don't ever update the software in your car, after you purchase it, unless it's a recall firmware fix.

zdrummond 11y ago
Except, when I was driving my Tesla Model S down a long stretch of highway, the entire instrument cluster froze. I had to pull off and turn it off and on again; I kid you not. Move fast break things! Hmmmm.
- amluto 11y ago
  In a Tesla, "my car crashed" has a whole new meaning. Hold down the top steering wheel button on each side for several seconds, then release. That'll reboot the instrument cluster. Hold down both scroll wheels for several seconds and release -- that will reboot the center console. Perfectly safe while driving, and everything still works. Everything that Tesla considers essential, of course. You can't tell how fast you're going while the instrument cluster is rebooting, and you can't hear the turn signal while the center console is rebooting. You also can't lock the doors while the center console is rebooting, but apparently no one at Tesla ever lived or stopped the car in a dangerous neighborhood.
  - Cthulhu_ 11y ago
    > but apparently no one at Tesla ever lived or stopped the car in a dangerous neighborhood. * while holding down both scroll wheels for several seconds to reboot the center console for whatever reason.

nicboobees 11y ago

This is an awful user experience though. Look at mobile phones. An old Nokia 3210 or something, just works. It does everything fine. It works as a phone. It was designed from start to finish, and built. Compare that with Android. Every update they seem to break or remove some functionality. Endless software updates, restarting, etc. It was shipped with bugs, it'll always have bugs. I'm not convinced this is an improvement. Also obviously has some pretty big consequences if the update system is hacked, or if there's critical bugs etc.

jrwoodruff 11y ago
If it's done poorly, of course it's a terrible experience. Restarting my car and it's suddenly faster and smarter? Sounds like a positive experience to me.
- nicboobees 11y ago
  What if they decide to remove a feature like Android removed "silent mode" as a feature... Also, software will always be more buggy than hardware. The more software there is in something, the less reliable it is.
rdtsc 11y ago
Aslo battery life. I used to charge my phone once a week, tops. I could drop it, throw, it fit in my hand my pocket find. Now I have to charge it every day. My android is more of a portable computer that also knows how to make calls via the cell phone network.
- oaktowner 11y ago
  If you turn off data and don't use the screen, you'll get much better battery life (and have approximately the same feature set as your old phone). Old phones didn't have apps that required constant connectivity and didn't have screens at all, essentially. So the problem is that this is comparing yesterday's phone with today's pocket-sized computer. Note: you can still buy a feature phone today if you'd like.

rs999gti 11y ago

"It gives an amazing user experience, "Hey restart your car and it's now got X and Y". Respect." It's basically Apple's model with iPhone and Macs, except applied to automobiles.

monokrome 11y ago
Not sure that this is necessarily Apple-specific
- superuser2 11y ago
  In practice, carriers and manufacturers do not tend to release updates for Android phones other than Nexus once the shinier model has come out a few months later. One of the major selling points of the iPhone is that it will continue to receive full OS updates for 2+ years. Continuing software upgrades are pretty Apple-specific in the smartphone market, but it's also just as true of Windows and Linux in the desktop space.
noja 11y ago
How is a software update "Apple's model"?

romaniv 11y ago

At the same time, this means you do not really control your own car anymore. It's like a service.

lberger 11y ago
For those that lease their car, this seems like a positive thing.
goldfeld 11y ago
Owning your own car will go the way of owning your own boat or horse. Expensive and mostly for sport.

dm2 11y ago

It shows that they care about their product, their customers, and their brand. Any other car company would save software updates for the latest years model and tell users that they have to purchase a new vehicle to receive the updates. Great precedent Tesla, thank you, and I hope other car companies follow your lead.

rn222 11y ago

The entire automotive industry sees automobiles as upgradeable, it's called the "aftermarket". Conventional automobiles can be tuned and upgraded and have been for generations, except, us non Tesla owners can do it without the manufacturers say so. With Tesla you are forced to buy your upgrades from them, this is less flexible IMO.

greglindahl 11y ago
There are numerous aftermarket upgrades for Teslas.
- rn222 11y ago
  Powertrain upgrades?

minkowskitensor 11y ago

This sort of thing isn't really that new in the automotive industry. The R35 GT-R has had the same basic powertrain, chassis, and body since 2008, but year over year Nissan continuously upgrades the power output by tuning the ECU and turbocharger boost controllers. You can change an ICE's characteristics quite drastically just with a quick ECU reflash; you can make the cam timing delayed/dulled for better fuel efficiency, or you can set the lifter solenoid (if the engine has one) to activate at insanely low engine speeds to get as much torque out of the engine as possible. The electric motor is a much simpler device compared to a classical Carnot heat engine. This, combined with Tesla's over-the-air root access to the deepest levels of the vehicle's systems, makes the actual process of tweaking and tuning the car feel much more seamless.

Shivetya 11y ago

Sorry, but honestly making it faster is about the opposite I want to see as an improvement. It is a near admission, we can't do jack about range so lets wave our dicks around at the stop light. I was so hoping the D would have stood for distance/double/ etc before speculation ruined that idea. Now it seems their only news is, look its faster which runs counter to the conservation idea of EVs

ryguytilidie 11y ago
This is such an insanely nitty complaint I can't even believe it. They are limited by batter technology and are doing the best they can. While conservation is certainly the idea of EVs, they need to have certain performance characteristics before they are widely accepted. PR stunts like this get people more interested in a great thing. But I suppose this is the internet so we just need to slam everything and insult everyone. :\
- FireBeyond 11y ago
  The fuse to make this work is an extra $10K. What battery pack or technology could be purchased for that? "they need to have certain performance characteristics before they are widely accepted" EVs need to be able to do 0-60 in 2.8s to be widely accepted??
  - twblalock 11y ago
    > EVs need to be able to do 0-60 in 2.8s to be widely accepted?? ryguytilidie's comment, in context, included this explanation: "PR stunts like this get people more interested in a great thing." And yes, products which are new and different generally need good PR in order to be accepted by consumers. Quite a lot of the press is talking about this today, which is what Tesla hoped to achieve.