4 ms·

H1-B visas snapped up despite recession

13 points by gamble 17y ago

roc 17y ago
"The numbers are surprising, considering the state of the economy," To who? Study after study has shown that H1-Bs are paid less. Sure, the state of the economy leads to local coders accepting less than before, but they still can't match the salary expectations of an Indian or Asian import. If you're looking to cut budget, or grow cheaply, it's still to your financial advantage to seek H1-Bs.
- UncleOxidant 17y ago
  Not only do they work cheaply, but they work pretty much all the time... at least the ones in my department do. That's great from management's perspective, but the rest of us like to have a life and side projects and they make us look bad ;-)
  - ajju 17y ago
    I dispute the generalization that good programmers, whether on H1-B or not, work cheaply. Obviously there are exceptions, some people are just afraid to negotiate. And yes, if you are a SAP code monkey on an H1-B with a degree in construction engineering from India and no formal training or real experience as a programmer, you will work cheap. Also, the reason H1-Bs work more is as likely to be the fact that most of them are single folks in their 20s, often just out of school, with no or little family here and possibly a smaller social circle. There's a reason Google prefers to hire out of that demographic.
- codexon 17y ago
  There's a lot of people on websites like techcrunch who still believe that H1-Bs are more qualified than the average programmer in the US.
  - nandemo 17y ago
    I don't live in the US so I wouldn't know first hand. But I'd expect H1-Bs to be more qualified than the average US programmer. Many of the big hirers are companies that tend to hire above-average programmers: Microsoft, Intel, Google, investment banks, etc.
  - barrkel 17y ago
    I would have thought that's self-evident. Why go to the hassle of hiring H1-Bs if you could hire good people locally? FWIW, I have a H1-B, but I never actually made the jump to move to the US. It's in my passport sitting in my drawer right here.
- aditya 17y ago
  Study after study has shown that H1-Bs are paid less Do you have a source? A quick google finds one real study: http://www.mygreencard.com/downloads/H1BWages_December2005.pdf http://www.mygreencard.com/downloads/H1BWages_December2005.p... that was done on data from 5 years ago and a lot of echo. Personal experience suggests otherwise.
  - codexon 17y ago
    http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/h1b.html http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/h1b.html
    - aditya 17y ago
      Again, one study from 2003, and a lot of op-eds. I might just have to get creative with the data myself.
      - codexon 17y ago
        Why would you have reason to believe the situation has drastically reversed itself in merely 6 years? I would be more inclined to believe those congressional reports than the anecdotal evidence you have.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
- ajju 17y ago
  If you think there are H1-B's out there rejecting positions by the droves because of low salaries, you are mistaken. Every H1-B visa comes with a few thousand dollars of legal expenses to file the visa, front loaded and then 10-20K more if they insist that you file a residency application for them, which most good programmers will. Additionally, any company that accepted TARP funds is legally prohibited from hiring H1Bs (actually it's theoretically possible, but so hard that they just don't). Separately, it is one thing if you want SAP code monkeys but if you want people who really know how to code an/or have a degree in CS from a decent school in the U.S., paying them less just because they need an H1-B just doesn't work. Source: personal experience, at least 20 batch mates from grad school.
sriramk 17y ago
Typically, the visas get overbooked (sometimes, twice over - leading to the lottery system) on the first day. The fact that there are still opening months later points to a dramatic slowown
- vitobcn 17y ago
  I totally agree. On April 2008, when my employer applied for an H1-B, there were about 190,000 applications within the first week. Considering that the available quota is 65,000, the odds of getting one were not very good. The fact that there are 3500 positions not filled as of December 2009 cannot be interpreted in any way as employers stepping up foreign workers hiring.
jswinghammer 17y ago
I've had nothing but problems hiring good people in good times and bad times. This doesn't surprise me at all. Finding good people is very hard.
- teeja 17y ago
  I'm not surprised (at least for people trying to hire online) because I've never seen crappier job descriptions than those on the Web these days. Nobody leaves a phone#, they expect CV and won't answer the simplest preliminary questions by email. They ask for outrageous qualifications for the stipulated wages and positions. Very slipshod descriptions of the work, next to no details about the company ... and most of their websites tell me that they're strictly amateurs. That describes 85-90% of what I'm seeing. It's has to be harder finding someplace worth replying to, when they act like they don't really care, than it is to find good people. Very few who are advertising positions know how to pitch a job.

13 points by gamble 17y ago

roc 17y ago

"The numbers are surprising, considering the state of the economy," To who? Study after study has shown that H1-Bs are paid less. Sure, the state of the economy leads to local coders accepting less than before, but they still can't match the salary expectations of an Indian or Asian import. If you're looking to cut budget, or grow cheaply, it's still to your financial advantage to seek H1-Bs.

UncleOxidant 17y ago
Not only do they work cheaply, but they work pretty much all the time... at least the ones in my department do. That's great from management's perspective, but the rest of us like to have a life and side projects and they make us look bad ;-)
- ajju 17y ago
  I dispute the generalization that good programmers, whether on H1-B or not, work cheaply. Obviously there are exceptions, some people are just afraid to negotiate. And yes, if you are a SAP code monkey on an H1-B with a degree in construction engineering from India and no formal training or real experience as a programmer, you will work cheap. Also, the reason H1-Bs work more is as likely to be the fact that most of them are single folks in their 20s, often just out of school, with no or little family here and possibly a smaller social circle. There's a reason Google prefers to hire out of that demographic.
codexon 17y ago
There's a lot of people on websites like techcrunch who still believe that H1-Bs are more qualified than the average programmer in the US.
- nandemo 17y ago
  I don't live in the US so I wouldn't know first hand. But I'd expect H1-Bs to be more qualified than the average US programmer. Many of the big hirers are companies that tend to hire above-average programmers: Microsoft, Intel, Google, investment banks, etc.
- barrkel 17y ago
  I would have thought that's self-evident. Why go to the hassle of hiring H1-Bs if you could hire good people locally? FWIW, I have a H1-B, but I never actually made the jump to move to the US. It's in my passport sitting in my drawer right here.
aditya 17y ago
Study after study has shown that H1-Bs are paid less Do you have a source? A quick google finds one real study: http://www.mygreencard.com/downloads/H1BWages_December2005.pdf http://www.mygreencard.com/downloads/H1BWages_December2005.p... that was done on data from 5 years ago and a lot of echo. Personal experience suggests otherwise.
- codexon 17y ago
  http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/h1b.html http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/h1b.html
  - aditya 17y ago
    Again, one study from 2003, and a lot of op-eds. I might just have to get creative with the data myself.
    - codexon 17y ago
      Why would you have reason to believe the situation has drastically reversed itself in merely 6 years? I would be more inclined to believe those congressional reports than the anecdotal evidence you have.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
ajju 17y ago
If you think there are H1-B's out there rejecting positions by the droves because of low salaries, you are mistaken. Every H1-B visa comes with a few thousand dollars of legal expenses to file the visa, front loaded and then 10-20K more if they insist that you file a residency application for them, which most good programmers will. Additionally, any company that accepted TARP funds is legally prohibited from hiring H1Bs (actually it's theoretically possible, but so hard that they just don't). Separately, it is one thing if you want SAP code monkeys but if you want people who really know how to code an/or have a degree in CS from a decent school in the U.S., paying them less just because they need an H1-B just doesn't work. Source: personal experience, at least 20 batch mates from grad school.

sriramk 17y ago

Typically, the visas get overbooked (sometimes, twice over - leading to the lottery system) on the first day. The fact that there are still opening months later points to a dramatic slowown

vitobcn 17y ago
I totally agree. On April 2008, when my employer applied for an H1-B, there were about 190,000 applications within the first week. Considering that the available quota is 65,000, the odds of getting one were not very good. The fact that there are 3500 positions not filled as of December 2009 cannot be interpreted in any way as employers stepping up foreign workers hiring.

jswinghammer 17y ago

I've had nothing but problems hiring good people in good times and bad times. This doesn't surprise me at all. Finding good people is very hard.

teeja 17y ago
I'm not surprised (at least for people trying to hire online) because I've never seen crappier job descriptions than those on the Web these days. Nobody leaves a phone#, they expect CV and won't answer the simplest preliminary questions by email. They ask for outrageous qualifications for the stipulated wages and positions. Very slipshod descriptions of the work, next to no details about the company ... and most of their websites tell me that they're strictly amateurs. That describes 85-90% of what I'm seeing. It's has to be harder finding someplace worth replying to, when they act like they don't really care, than it is to find good people. Very few who are advertising positions know how to pitch a job.